I recently got into what we’ll call a “friendly conversation” with guru David Wygant over in the comment section of a recent post on Eseduce. The difference of opinion got me thinking about what kind of role women can play in sites like TSB.
The gist of the conversation was me calling David too fluffy and PG for my taste, and saying that he caters to much to his female audience. While I may have been harsh in my “too fluffy” comment, I do think that David tends to stay on the politically correct side of the fence in order to appease his growing female audience. This is David’s style and it works for him. There are men and women out there that I’m sure are benefiting from his teachings.
Below is part of David’s response to my comment (you can read the full response at eseduce)
” I find these men only communities are just way to narrow,…..you are all trying so hard to learn the magic secret of how to meet seduce and be the man with women.
But you only talk amongst yourselves. Read some of the postings from women…..thats who you also want to learn from.”
This got me wondering if TSB would benefit positively or negatively from having more female contributors on the site. Over the years we have had quite a few women give honest open feedback that has been quite valuable. Our podcast with female bartender Nikki was one of our most popular… but then there is the other side of the arguement.. Below are just a couple samples of the endless comments I’ve gotten from women over the years:
“You are a terrible person and you suck at life”
” you’re an idiot…i’m a girl…this shit doesn’t work….ps idiot.”
“That’s just fucking sad…. men are such pigs!”
“I think that this is a horrible website. It is teaching males to be manipulative and it is detestable! I am outraged as a female to see such a degrading website.”
And lets not forget the classic email I received from a girl I was dating who found this site.
Now I value all comments left on this site, even if they don’t agree with me. That is how we learn. And some women who don’t agree with the kind of stuff I write are intuitive enough to know that there is some truth behind it and are able to disagree with me and offer another point of view. These comments are truly always welcomed and appreciated.
But the question I am posing is; If I opened this site up to be more unisex do you think there are enough women out there who can be honest and objective when reading the kind of articles I publish? I accused Wygant of catering to his female audience… You guys should know me enough to know I am the furthest thing from being politically correct. I call it how I see it. I also write many stories about my misadventures with my female companions… These stories tend to be blunt and honest and don’t always fly so well with female readers… and I’m not willing to change.
We have a handful of regular female readers who are insightful and leave constructive feedback. Do you think they are the majority or minority when it comes to women reading this site? Do you think if I geared this site to both men and women we would be able to have open, honest communication? Or would it turn into constant bickering between the men and women? Would my site be filled with more comments like the ones listed above?
My main argument to Wygant was that men and women reading dating advice sites tend to be looking for different things. My opinion is that most women reading a dating site are looking for a relationship, and most men reading sites like TSB are looking to improve their overall game so that they can experience of vast array of women. How do you guys feel about that assessment? Am I wrong? Are you guys looking for immediate long term relationships? Are women really just looking to fuck a lot of guys?
I am curious as to your opinions on the various issues I’ve brought up.
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March 4, 2008
I tend to agree with you.. i love when women give us useful advice.. there are a couple girls on here lately that have been giving great advice.. but most girls i’ve discussed this sort of stuff with are very close minded. i mention things like negs and they think im crazy. i think it is hard to run a site that caters to both sexes.
March 4, 2008
You bring up some good points. Many times I’m astounded when female readers completely agree with me on a topic I thought would cause them to flip out. Its usually the things you least expect.
seduction chronicles’s last blog post..No More Excuses (Herbal?s Game Column)
March 4, 2008
Hmm, my honest opinion is that i would regard experienced women advices/ comments. Women such as athena and nikki have these sort of general knowledge and know what is useful to do - Not only that, but they understand us in a way, they are open minded, and im guessing they dont think of us as “pigs” lol.
I would like to see more of them, and their comments and see their views.
Different people have different goals/intentions while reading through site like these. So its kinda hard to judge or make an assumptions that all guys prefer polygamous relationships whilst all girls prefer long term monogamous relationships.
So to conclude..If there are going to be more women audiences in this site, i would prefer the experienced ones who are open minded about these topics.
Pzz
March 4, 2008
i suspect the women aLpHa_kaY mentioned do think of us as pigs, but pigs are great once you get to know them. it is the closed minded women who refuse to accept new ideas that automatically dispise pigs.
March 4, 2008
this is great man. Getting a girl point of is really important and can really help. It might be hard to find one but i’m sure there are plenty out there helping out men like us
March 4, 2008
Wow that email was hilarious… I mean i read this website mainly because it has very valuable information on generally being a man and improving aspects of your life. Not only just in dating, but becoming a better person. I’m sure that many women that read this site are only looking at the sections that involve anything sexual. I’m also sure that they are defining seduction as manipulation. I really think that you should include insight from certain women, who’s judgment you trust. Like Nikki from the podcasts, she understands the concept behind your ideas, and she also has a very good insight on things. I think that this would turn into an endless bitching session between men and women if more women we’re included on the site. Remember you can’t make everybody happy, so don’t even waste your time trying to do so.
March 4, 2008
I agree that a woman’s point of view can be very helpful, but in my experience with women whom I’ve discussed this stuff with, only girls whom I’ve known for a while are receptive to it. The rest think its belittling, degrading, and sad - even though that’s completely inaccurate. I think that if we did get more females to comment on this site, it’d be great, but the overall appeal of this site should stay more towards men, cuz we can benefit the most from it. But I think to a lesser degree, women can learn from it too to get an insight on what a man’s game plan is and what is going on in his head.
March 4, 2008
well, i dont think you guys are pigs. and i dont think it much matters if you are looking for a different woman every night or hoping for a long term relationship. you cant get either with the woman you want if you dont know how to get in, communicate, impress, and get into bed with her. i’ve been through enough awkward situations and tried to help my guy friends get the girl of their dreams often enough to realize that men need help interacting with women.
i dont think that the percentage of women who have realized this is a small as you think. so yes, i believe you could have a lot more girls around here helping you out. sure, this place is a little blunt, and sure, some girls are going to take that the wrong way. but they are easy to recognize as idiots, and i doubt they will stick around to harass you. and they ARE complete idiots if they think a guy can just read a website and somehow “trick” them into sleeping with you against their will. a few, random, single sentence insults is a small price to pay for bringing other girls with good intentions and advice.
March 4, 2008
The way I see it, most of the women out there aren’t a good source for advice. From my personal experience, women have always told me “bring her flowers”, “wait for her at the airport” and on and on. On the other hand, there is the minority of women that actually know how to give advice, I unfortunately, haven’t been able to run into one of these. I have actually spoken to several women about this stuff, explained my side of it, only for them to turn around and say that my method won’t work…needless to say, they’ve been wrong, lol
I think that you should keep the site the way it is. If you cater too much to the women (which I know you won’t) it’ll usually go towards AFC.
March 4, 2008
oh yeah, i forgot the other subject! the only women who WILL stick around here with the site as it is are the kinds who are really out to help you guys. simply because there is almost nothing else at all here for a women to do! the kinds of things you describe that work on women DO NOT work the other way around. sure, there is a lot to discuss and explore on how to get women, but the women who stick around here already know all that stuff! there are no articles on how a man thinks. now im sure you are thinking “hell, if a girl needs help with THAT, she must be unfuckable”. well, you would be mistaken. sure, just about every girl knows if she wants to get a guy in bed she can - no problem. personally, i find men like they are ripe fruit on a tree - i just have to reach up and pluck them! but there is a lot more to interacting with men than simply getting them into bed, and im not too proud to admit some of what you guys do just puzzles me! and i KNOW i send out the wrong impressions pretty often. im just not always clear on how my actions translate to you guys, or vice versa. I know it can feel like any woman who is desirable already knows everything about how guys work - but im here to tell you (even if THEY wont) women dont know shit about it.
men are just as confusing to them as women were to you before you started learning. the ONLY difference is we know how to get you to fuck us.
March 5, 2008
It’s crazy… I get tons of female readers and probably 30% of my email subscribers are women… which is really strange considering the damn site is for men.
But, I guess we all have some great universal content like social networking and controversy.
Plus… I KNOW that women are trying to figure us out. After all, we’re the GOOD ONES out there… even though sometimes the things that we write toe the line quite a bit.
Yet, it’s that brutal honesty that women can appreciate, simply because they don’t get it often.
Speaking of Wygant, I talk to him on the phone about once a week and I’ll tell you, a lot of his stuff has to be PG (esp the Yahoo! stuff)… yet the guy’s definitely got an edge to him.
I say… keep doing what you’re doing and attract who you’ll attract here… and let the chips fall where they will. That’s when this place will take on a life of its own.
It’s already happening… lol.
March 5, 2008
All women understand that men have a game and need to run it. However, most women look at the emotional progression model as a way of manipulation. They don’t understand AFCs get into the game to build a better life.
I think you should keep this site the way it is. Of course, there are women who are exceptions and can give great feedback. But I say if they can give great feed back to this website while you keep it the way it is, then they just proved they are the type of woman that understands the reasons AFCs get into the game.
Those are the best chix to hang out wit. I once wrote an FR here about a girl I picked up that I addressed as RK. I ended up bringing her into the world of pick-up. She has been completely open minded with pick-up. She has been a really cool chick to get female feedback from.
-Seraf
March 5, 2008
There are conservatives in both sexes. Yes, women can definitely contribute a lot to this site. In fact, an objective advice from a lady who’s not a stranger to the love game can be very effective. I have a forum advice column and most questions from the men are about sex, while those from women are about the love side of relationships. After all, sometimes guys are clueless when the more wily females decide to fake it, and a lot of us can. It takes a woman to point it out.
evilwoobie’s last blog post..Breakup Quirks: The Gifts That Bind Us
March 5, 2008
ok i posted earlier and it never showed, but what i said was…
yes we benefit from the female advice and perspective but should you cater to them or pg the site for them…no. if you think about it the females who understand this and like to help or contribute come anyways like athena and evilwoobie, and the ones who thinks this is wrong say their peace and leave or just leave anyways. i say keep doing it like u have.
Teddy Bear’s last blog post..How to be Popular in High School Podcast
March 5, 2008
I would welcome more female advice - but athena’s hit the nail on the head - the only females who can give us objective advice are the ones who can take the blunt nature of this site. I wouldn’t change a thing but I would try to attract more females using other methods perhaps
March 5, 2008
I think it would be a huge mistake to make this a unisex site. Ask your self this: Why are there in the first place political correct dating (mis)beliefs?
Because women profit from these misbeliefs, like buying drinks etc, kissing ass, being nice when she is rude etc.
So think twice. If we need women’s opinions that strongly to make us better, then Mystery, Style wouldn’t exit as pua’s.
March 5, 2008
it seems to me like there is the general assumption that in order to bring in more females, you would have to be more fluffy and politically correct. but actually, that would only draw in the kinds you DONT want. although i dont think anything here should or would change, its totally possible to present something useful to women in the same blunt and gritty manner you do for the men. its a huge untapped market, because we all know the kind of “advice” and “guidance” they push on us in things like cosmo and advice columns is a load of commercialized misguided CRAP.
if you really wanted to bring in more women who can accept a site like this, and still keep the same style - thats totally do-able!
March 5, 2008
I agree with Athena. I subscribed for a reason, and it’s not because of politically correct issues. TSB is like being in on the real deal with what guys think and say about women, regardless if some girls get offended they will keep coming back for sure. Like pushing our ears against the wall of the male locker room.
There are a lot of other venues for rabid feminism, and this site isn’t one of those. Again, there will always be detractors and affronted females, but they will keep on reading. Check the IP logs. *laughs*
evilwoobie’s last blog post..Breakup Quirks: The Gifts That Bind Us
March 5, 2008
PS. A prominent X-mark is available at the upper right hand. Girls who get affronted can click it at whim. Honestly, even the more self-righteous girls should read TSB. The lady in the parlor-whore in the bedroom cliche isn’t exactly baseless. If we don’t agree with your methods, we could at least pick up clues on how to keep our men interested. After all, the cheating/unfaithful thing isn’t entirely a man’s fault, no matter how many sanctimonious speeches we listen to.
(not spam, just an afterthought)
evilwoobie’s last blog post..Breakup Quirks: The Gifts That Bind Us
March 5, 2008
I couldn’t have said it better myself. Evilwobbie and Athena are my type of gals
“That girl” you speak about seems to be currently comenting on the post below… lol
http://www.theseductionbible.com/2007/01/07/threesomes/#comment-271764
March 5, 2008
Our culture ingrains in us specific ideas about women, men, dating, and sex. Most men just entering into the community receive a reality shock and it takes them awhile to adjust to a new way of thinking, I think most women are not willing to accept this new way of thinking and really do not quite understand what works for them and what doesn’t. I think they know what they think they want, but we have all learned that what a woman says they want and what they go for are not normally the same things. These are women we do not need advice or comments from. Women that are invovled with the community and understand the teachings can be very beneficial, but I belief most will not add any value to the dialogue.
March 5, 2008
Cocky/funny doesnt work as good for girls.. but i personally like a girl that isn’t afraid to bust my balls a little. Challenge me.
I think i’m going to write a post about female game.. just one to help out the women who might be reading this site.
March 5, 2008
March 5, 2008
I must say, the insights of most women on dating or on pickup are totally useless. Most women judge the validity of a statement on how it makes them feel. If it hurts someone’s feelings, ruins a fairytale they have in their minds, if it requires accepting an ugly truth over a reassuring fiction, they will go ballistic and shoot the messenger. Never mind if their reassuring fictions have brought them no dating successes themselves, they will still attack you for daring to burst their bubble with your ugly truths.
That being said, even though most women’s opinions on dating are useless, I still value having women on this site. Because when women DO get it the way Athena and Wobbie do, it’s SO good and on the money that it more than makes up for the vast majority of women who don’t get it. Some of Athena’s comments have been SO good they’ve blown my mind in how useful they are. I’d happily sift through a 100 screeching feminist meltdowns to get to a good comment by women like Athena and Wobbie who get it.
T.’s last blog post..The Difference Between Style And Fashion
March 5, 2008
Are you kidding me T? Women have really good advice on dating and pick up. They are women so of course they know what a woman thinks. I think women have negative reactions to our lifestyle because they don’t understand it. ANd isnt that the case with most things in life?
And whats with this 100 screeching femenists? IMO I think femenists would appreciate a site like this which promotes having integrity, being confident and basically treating a woman right. I think if women really understood the PUA community, they’d find that a lot of these guys are less “pathetic” than the 25 year old guido who has a 20 pack and is just a complete asshole.
March 5, 2008
[...] Can Females Give Objective Advice on Meeting Women? From: http://www.theseductionbible.com I recently got into what we’ll call a “friendly conversation” with guru David Wygant over in the comment section of a recent post on Eseduce. The difference of opinion got me thinking about what kind of role women can play in sites like TSB. » more 1 [...]
March 6, 2008
that being said.. guys don’t worry. I would never change this site. but it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have the occasional article about female game.
i like that idea bobby, and im sure they do too. you need to do one that tells them our behavior so they get some insight into what goes on in our minds
Teddy Bear’s last blog post..Top Commenter Prizes for March
March 6, 2008
Just so you know, I’m English, so maybe what I say doesn’t pertain as much to The United States of Ass (I’ve seen Saved by the bell, your coutnry is full of hotties). But you can do well to read it, at least.
In my personal experience, women can give only a small amount of objective advice. Women I’m familiar with are so wrapped up in romantic comedies and chick flicks that when I ask their advice they’ll either shrug their shoulders or spout the stereotypical stuff like “have confidence” and “be yourself”. I mean to an extent it’s true (confidence is always good, and by changing yourself to an Alpha and then being him i.e. you, is also good), but hell they can’t EXPLAIN why.
For example, A lot of the tests and stuff women do are subconcious, so she isn’t going to be able to go “Yeah you should watch out for her shit tests” when she’s advising you. She does this shit, but usually the woman won’t be particularly socially savvy. Don’t take this the wrong way - she can analyse the shit out of you. She’ll know your game as soon as she approaches. But when you exert your Alpha, C&F etc. etc. etc. she’ll feel the attraction without being able to explain it.
It reminds of me of a time I was a bit younger (maybe 14 or so) there was this girl I liked, and she had the biggest BASTARD of a boyfriend. I simply ask “why do you like him?” and she goes “I don’t know. I really don’t. I know he’s bad for me, I just love him” I was shocked. But I sit in the dark toilet no longer.
More cynically speaking, she has something to LOSE by telling guys how to be successful. Even if she knew what C&F was, she wouldn’t want to admit to being attracted to someone who uses it! C&F for example may make her doubt herself. Would she rather control someone or feel completely out of control? Women don’t really see far enough ahead into the future to see the benefit of advising men, so even if she does know a few things, she stands to lose by revealing them. Thus, she won’t tell you.
However, women are intensely useful if you want advice on some the simpler stuff. I never used chat up lines because when I was young, my mum professed her disdain for them. On ‘nicer’ stuff like topics of conversation, maybe women can help out (I personally rarely ask for women’s advice). However, on stuff like making yourself challenge, 1 night stands etc. etc. a mechanism similar to the ASF might kick in, making her deny everything.
“And she’ll seem completely congruent doing so” TD
In conclusion, women are of very little help, if any.
I hope this didn’t seem like I hate women or see them cynically or anything. I don’t hate women and I am cynical about people in general.
Thanks.
March 6, 2008
There really is only one factor that determines if a woman is going to be able to give serious advice here or will be offended and angry at this site.
It all depends on how much respect she has for men in general. Women with low or zero respect for men will hate the idea of any man trying to learn any sort of social skills geared towards “picking up” women.
Any time you find a woman who tries to bash you for any of this pay attention to anything else she says or does in regards to the genders. You will notice eventually a lack of respect in general for you and other men.
Once you look for it you will see it trust me.
So really, The only way to get the type of women posting here that would give great advice would be to somehow find the ones who have a good respect for men in general.
March 6, 2008
A very good point. However, I assume that if you’re talking to a girl and you haven’t ignored her its because she has some respect for men. After all, wwhy would you talk to a woman like that?
I guess it would be best for you to guage her respect for men. Hard to do, though.
A good comment, Chris.
Thanks.
March 6, 2008
actually, i think the biggest factor in a woman being able to give advice in this area is her own confidence and self awareness. its her own self respect, not her respect for men. i mean, if she really thinks you can “trick” her, she must think she is stupid. if she is afraid of being manipulated, obviously she will be pretty suspicious and defensive. she is going to think the only thing she has to offer a guy is sex, so of course he must be only after that. also, she isnt going to want to be very honest with herself, ESPECIALLY with the kinds of things that dont sound so nice (like most the truth about what turns them on). further, they will want to shove off all the blame on someone else when they keep finding themselves attracted to guys that arent good for them. AND, they will not have any power in their lives, so will constantly be looking for a guy they can control - as a result, any advice they give will be manipulative fantasy crap.
March 6, 2008
Odin, I think you’re completely generalizing women as these simple minded creatures who don’t know what they want. Your making it seem like they don’t know why they are attracted to guys and what attracts them in general. I think this is completely inaccurate because women are not dumb. They know what they like, what attracts them, and how a high valued man acts. Of course they aren’t going to say, oh cold reads and push pull theory gets me interested, but they will use terms that can translate into PUA theory. If you want really good insight into a woman’s perspective on game I seriously suggest listening to Bobby and Mike’s podcast where they had a female guest on. She doesn’t use PUA lingo, but what she says is totally what the jist of the message that people like Mystery and Style teach., for example: she mentions guys who don’t show to much interest in her get her more interested in them. That can be seen as active disinterest that the gurus teach. So ya see, women knows what attracts them and can give you advice about it, but only if your a good friend/ in a relationship w/ them or have created deep rapport. Cuz if your asking random women you don’t know for advice for picking up other women, of course they’ll give you AFC shit cuz they dnt know you well enough to give away their secret desires.
March 7, 2008
I agree with Zeo. The terms could be different but the message is the same.
Frankly, It’s fun seeing guys get their game on, and most guys recognize at once when the girl knows how the game is played. Playing along as long as it’s comfortable and convenient is not uncommon in girls, and some could disengage just as easily without the simpering naivete. The same type of woman can easily distinguish when a guy suddenly becomes serious about the relationship, and can opt to back away or respond accordingly.
Seem familiar? it’s the same game, just different approaches.
evilwoobie’s last blog post..Did Anyone Say Witch With a B?
March 7, 2008
Ah Zeo.
I dont think women are dumb at all. Them not knowing why they are attracted to a guy doesnt make them dumb - it makes them human. Nikki from the podcast was a smart girl and was gamed always, so she was intensely aware of the art. When were talking about hbs who don’t get hit on CONSTANTLY it’s probably a lot different.
It could be different for England though. See, over here, many girls are very reserved and people don’t tend to speak their mind in general. But for all intensive purposes, Zeo has some damn good points. I’m glad you helped me clear this up anyways, I did worry my post seemed like I thought women were dumb, when really they hold all the social intelligence cards.
Also, I didnt ask a random woman for advice, I asked a very close friend of mine who I was sure I could trust. I liked the podcast they did with Nikki, but I felt it was a little protracted and notice how they had to coax out certain answers they wanted. If they didn’t ask leading questions, she wouldn’t be able to answer. Think of this what you will.
In summary, Zeo, maybe we’re talking about 2 completely different types of women. English women and American women.
Thanks.
March 9, 2008
This is an absolutely awesome thread and I’m glad you put it out there. Firstly, I’m a big fan of Wygant’s and I comment on his blog regularly. He bills himself as a dating coach and NOT as a PUA, so his system and methods are different from what you’d see on a PUA site. His style might seem like a soft sell to a PUA, but I don’t think his primary objective is to get get same night lays (although not against it). My impression is he’s more in the vein of DeAngelo, ie doing approaches and getting dates. Nothing wrong with that. It works for a lot of guys. His perspective also encompasses relationships, which a lot of PUA systems gloss over or don’t address at all. So I understand what he’s saying about the narrow view of a men’s only community.
My take on bringing women into a men’s site. I think it’s awesome and in fact it would be an evolution in social arts. Imagine creating a system that was designed by a guy AND a girl. Basically it fully addresses the needs and empathizes with both parties. Twould be bulletproof. Most women need to strengthen their games also, so it would be functional to have both sides immersed in social artistry. What it boils down to is teaching both sides how to flirt and interact at a social level.
My blogging partner, Honey, very much “gets it” when it comes to guys learning game. The problem she has is that much of the language of pickup sounds juvenile and is off-putting in the extreme for a woman. For instance, “pickup” has a sleazy connotation to a woman who hasn’t been exposed to what we’re doing. Negs, compliance tests, canned routines, peacocking, buying temp, it all sounds too tactical and manipulative to an intelligent women. Imagine trying to explain sarging to Ivanka Trump. She would think you we’re an idiot.
Would love to hear some responses. Very thought provoking post!
lance’s last blog post..Weekend Roundup: Thanks To Our Peeps Edition
March 17, 2008
iù peut-on rencontrer l’auteur de ce billet ? :)v
March 27, 2008
This is an awesome post! I know there are a lot of chicks out there who really can’t stand all this pick up stuff.
I personally love it, i think its great that there are guys out there who want to improve their game instead of wallowing in their own self pity about the fact that they can’t get any chicks.
I think the only thing that girls don’t like about this whole thing, is that they have the perception that they are being played or manipulated
But i know quite a lot of guys who do extremly well in the dating game and they are all equally fantastic and so much more interesting that some average Joe guy who has never been kissed let alone knows anything else about the dating game.
With that said, i think that its great to be able to have more female insight on the whole thing. After all aren’t we the targets? So aren’t we the best ones that know what it is that we are looking for?
That is provided that you are a girl that actually understands the dating game. And not some ditz who wonders why she is so attracted to her druggo bad ass boyfriend ..
So yeh in answer to your question, i find that chicks that give all this verbal crap and all the abusive emails ( that one that chick sent was hilarious, glad she was able to communicate to you that she was an idiot before you had to spend anymore time with her) - are simply uneducated and really don’t understand what dating is all about.
They would prefer to vent and be pissed instead of actually understanding what goes on out there.
Hot Alpha Female
Hot Alpha Female’s last blog post..Is There Anything Such As The Perfect Pick Up?