Cliff’s List March 23 2007

Here is the lastest in the PUA community. Cliff’s list newsletters ALWAYS contain material of value.

Cliff’s List Newlsetter


Hey guys… well I’m proud of myself here because this pick up was done under interesting circumstances. Here goes..

I’m on MSN last Tuesday night when a girl whom I tried picking up (which didn’t work out) contacted me at night. She wanted to go to Cafe Campus. I had made mistakes trying to seduce her so I decided to turn her into a pivot and friend. So I agree to join her.

We get inside and start people-watching together. I notice a cute girl with her friends and mention it to my pivot. She tells me “Go get her number! ‘Was she serious or testing me? Who knows? But I still went and ran my standard opener.

Although there were about 4-5 people in that group, only 2 of the girls heard what I said so I engaged just those 2. This was a mistake as you will see.

As I’m running game on them, things are going quite smoothly when one of the girls who I hadn’t talked to yet comes up to me and starts talking shit to me. I tried my best to diffuse it but it just turned into a pissing contest. In the end I shot her down pretty hard with some pretty good lines and walked off.

I’m feeling like crap cuz the reality is that I don’t like confrontation like this. I like to make love, not war. So I’m upstairs leaning on the ledge just looking off onto the dance floor below when this petite girl with these full, perky, scrumptious tits (let’s call her HBscrumptioustits) stands right next to me. In the past I would have been intimidated by a girl who is showing off her nice chest, but this time I had the game to handle it properly.

I have learned that if a woman is *comfortable* enough to come stand or sit next to you anywhere, especially if she is *alone* and it’s *not crowded*, then just assume it’s proximity. I just look at her to see what I can work with and notice her necklace that is of a big spider. Now I’m actually scared of spiders so I’m actually gonna go somewhere with the opener I decide to use

So my opener here was “That’s a very nice necklace.” What’s that? I used a… compliment opener??? Well from what I know, when a woman has herself standing next to a guy waiting to be opened, it’s as if she is putting herself on the line. And if I don’t open her then she will feel rejected. So I have to reward her good behaviour. Sure enough she tells me thanks with a big smile. Turns out its a one of a kind piece so my noticing won me points. I then tell her “I shouldn’t be telling you this… but I don’t like spiders. And so… if you were ever to put that thing on my shoulder just *before I woke up in the morning* then it would really scare me.” She got the hint…

I’m now engaging her in a discussion and whatever she tells me I use that info and run my routines or patterns that would fit in to what she would tell me and mixing in some light C&F. I also ran those IN10SE techs I mentioned in a recent Cliff List email. I get her to tell me about actors she finds attractive, times when she is comfortable with friends and about her ideal romantic getaways. As she is talking about these things I pay attention to her gestures, etc. Then I would repeat back to her what she was saying as well as mirroring her gestures that she put emphasis on.

It gets a little sexual so I tell her that I would rather not talk about sex unless I know that I’m gonna share something with that person. I felt like she was trying to control me with sex here as opposed to genuinely trying to turn me on in order for something to happen – a test basically. She was a bit surprised and now tells me she really likes talking to me as usually she stops talking to people after about 2 – 3 minutes because most people end up boring or annoying her. I took it as a compliment and start initiating kino to which she was very receptive.

It’s happened plenty of times where a girl and I will be teasing back and forth (I’m gonna have to spank you for that, etc.) but in the end it didn’t go anywhere because the girl simply got her validation out of the sex talk and didn’t need for it to escalate anymore. I’ve talked to Brad P at the last Cliffs List Convention and he likes to use sexual talk early on in an interaction in order to screen out women, but yet he still maintains his power. So it’s still a field where I need to work on…

I do my typical qualifying thing, SOI and comfort building stuff. For qualifying I now follow what Swinggcat says in that I will simply make comments about the things I like in life and in a woman. If she is into you she will agree and will describe herself in the same light. I run the Juggler SOI to make sure she realizes this ain’t gonna be platonic. And the comfort stuff is more about easy going stories in my life.

As things are heating up… cue in my pivot! So I introduce my pivot to HBscrumptioustits and they got along. My pivot also whispers something in her ear which I later found out that she told HBscrumptioustits that I’m a great guy. The timing here couldn’t have been better. Guys, get yourself a hot pivot or two and follow what Will said at the first Cliff’s List Convention.

I ask her who she came with and she tells me she is with… 9 GUYS! A girl came with 9 guys here and I end up picking her up. LOL!

Anyway, at some point I just lean in and start kissing her. Going back and forth from kissing and talking to her. In general you should only go for a kiss in a club after you have done solid game in order to avoid the next day buyer’s remorse. I feel that it should also be this way even if you see her BT is thru the roof and the chance for a full close that night is highly probable.

I notice it’s really heating up and now I’m worried about buyer’s remorse. So I tell her “For some reason, I’m afraid I will never end up seeing you again after tonight. I mean it’s like I think you are a really cool person and I can’t believe we met at a club of all places! I would like to talk to you again. And don’t you find it funny that although we are holding each other and kissing here tonight that the next time we meet we’ll often be cold and aloof.” She laughed and said she knew exactly what I was talking about. She also told me about her past relationship issues so I also take the time to elicit her values on relationships and reflect back stories from my life that echo what she said as well as repeating back her trance words. Damage control taken care of.

It’s closing soon and I offered to take her home as I wanted to see her get home *safely*. I see my pivot also met a guy. So in front of my HB, I tell this guy “You gonna make sure she gets home safe, right?” said in a very serious voice. He stuttered and said yes. I find out later that he was too afraid to try anything on my pivot.. lol. Guess I scared him. I think this looked very alpha in front of my HB.

I bring her home in my car while running some more of my routines. We get to her place and start making out some more. Now the windows of the car are steaming up cuz it’s getting so hot in here. And of course being the dog that I am I am trying to push it farther and she is telling me to slow down. I do 2 steps forward, one step back. Again I’m worried about the buyer’s remorse and tell her about how I really wanna talk to her again. This is where she gives me one of her little pinky rings to keep until the next time we meet. That gave me alot of relief… We said goodbye and agreed to meet on Friday.

Day 2: She agrees to come over and watch me make dinner. I get her talking while I’m cooking. Eventually I get her to talk about what specifically in her past relationships got her very turned on by her man. I figured I could do this now as enough comfort was built. (Earlier I just asked her to describe her most romantic get-away that turned her on.) What ever she told me I would repeat back to her and while mirroring the specific gestures, head and eye movements. You’d think they’d catch on… but they don’t! I would also repeat her trance words and self point. (After I laid her she said that this specific convo we had was one of her favorite times with me.)

We eat, drink and I show her vids on my computer again. The usual stuff I do at my house. I take her to my bed… and this time.. there was LMR… oh yes… there was LMR. Watch the Mystery Method DVDs near the end where he covers LMR tactics. Although I didn’t do them perfectly, it still got me to third base but no lay. But the most important thing here was that I maintained my frame control in the end game. Whatever you decide to do to handle LMR, it should still be congruent to who you are.

We get dressed and I take her to Newtown (a club in Montreal) where Carl Wiuff (Canadian singer coming out with a new album) was performing. There was a big ass line up… but one of the promoters is a best friend of mine so my girl and I got in pretty quick. Not only that, but we got into the VIP section with bottle service along with Carl Wiuff himself. Can you say.. D-H-V??? Lesson here: make friends with high status people like promoters.

I was just in the zone here going natural and not having to run my routines but I do remember one thing. My girl asks “When I’m with a guy, I’m like a nympho. I need sex everyday non stop…” I’m thinking to myself that this is a…….. TEST! She’s trying to see if A. She can control me and B. She is also worried that because I’m so high value now that she may not be able to keep me. I handled A. by telling her that my life is just too busy to see her everyday but I didn’t handle B. properly here despite doing some vulnerability routines earlier. She did ask me how long will I wait to expect sex. I told simply by the third date. She was a bit shocked at that as I said it with a pretty straight and direct facial expression like I meant it.

After the club we go for a drive to the top of Mont-Royal (the mountain in the center of Montreal with a great view)… and AGAIN the LMR. This time she wanted me to finger her to get her off. So I tell her “if I’m gonna get you off with my fingers then you gotta get me off with your mouth.. and swallow.” Before she told me she doesn’t swallow…. but she did this time! Guys…. frame control! Then she tells me… “Well, I would normally think this was just our first date (implying that our first meet wasn’t a date) but that now she might consider it our second thus making our next date our third….” The next day I send her a message telling her You rocked my world and it was without sex. Ok, I’m impressed. She replies telling me that we have both sexual and non-sexual chemistry.

We texted each other over the next few days. At one point she tells me that she is lingerie shopping and asks whether I want to consider our next date as our 2nd or 3rd. I figure she is trying to tease me here so I tell her that unless the lingerie she has is hot then I will consider it only as our 1st. She tells me that I shouldn’t expect to see the lingerie at all the next time we meet. So now I KNOW she is trying to use a bit of sexuality to control me and is trying to see if I’m congruent with what I told her earlier

I tell her that I already told her that I don’t like to be teased that way and that it’s the last time I’m gonna tell her this. She replied that she was only kidding around. I responded that it was just a misunderstanding cuz it’s hard to know when someone is joking thru text or on messenger. Was I bit harsh? Maybe, but I told her earlier that I’m an emotional person… which means that there will never be boredom.

Before we meet next I reviewed Mystery’s LMR tactics. The one I really decided to use was the “You hijacked my brain” routine. Now I don’t like using other people’s materials word for word but rather like to take the concepts and make something that comes from me, but this routine is very powerful as it really addresses her emotional need relating to her fear of abandonment, as Brother Kermit describes.

We meet and hang out at bar and start chatting a bit, then after we start drinking I ran the hijack routine and it worked like a charm. We bounce to a lounge and chatted some more. Then we just hop back into my car and head back to my place. To my surprise… there was no LMR and also…. she was really WET down there unlike the last 2-3 times I touched her. Hmmm… But this time… I made her BEG for the sex like the little slut that she is. Yeah.. it gets them hot, alright.

Wow… 3 in this month of February as compared to 3 in all the year of 2006. I feel like I’m improving here. And now I think I’m gonna make 2 of these girls (a girl I met in a parking lot and this HBscrumptioustits) as part of my first real MLTR. Better read up on some of that harem management…
p.s. Some of you may have noticed or wondered how was it that this girl actually felt comfortable standing next to me while I was giving off a bad vibe due to the bad interaction I had earlier when at club. So I asked her and she told me… that earlier that night some of those 9 guys she was with tried hitting on her and one tried to kiss her so she really got pissed off and left them. So she was pissed off as well when she came to stand next to me… Guess misery loves company! But, I also figure that despite feeling bad I still walked confidently with my head up, etc.



I want to take this opportunity to talk about a concept that is widely overlooked when we talk about communicating with women. We always are asking for good lines, conversation topics, body posture tips, where to meet women, and a host of other important things.

But something that often gets forgotten about is something I call talking to emotions. What this means is the particular way in which you develop sentences when talking to women that will make them feel a much more emotional reaction on the inside. I don’t mean WHAT you are talking about, because it could really be anything at all, but it’s HOW you talk about it. You can be talking to a woman, and describe the same event, or story, in a few different ways, and each different way will drastically change the way you make her feel as you are talking to her.

This idea that I am talking about is mostly used when talking to women on-line, because talking on-line gives you time to think about what you are going to say, and how to word it just right, and it also gives her the time to read, and re-read what you wrote at her own pace, letting each different word slowly sink in and pull on her emotional strings. This concept, however, can and SHOULD be used ANYTIME that you are talking to a woman, whether it is by e-mail, phone, or in person..even morse code, too.

What I am going to do is share a few excerpts from a story that a friend of mine wrote. This friend is an excellent writer, not just because of the ideas for the stories, but for the ways they are presented. I’m going to assume that most men DO NOT naturally speak in tongue in the same fashion that this story is written, so I am going to present a topic, and show you what most normal guys would say to describe it, and then show how my talented writing friend described the same event.
EXAMPLE 1: Amanda lay on the bed, sleeping. Her hair was kinda messy, and it looked pretty hot.

NOW TRY THIS: Amandas face looked soft and innocent; a dark strand of hair fell across her face, stark in contrast to her pale skin.
Essentially, the same information was given in both statements, but I’m sure you can see the difference between the two. One of them just told you the information, but the other one made it much easier to picture the setting in your mind. The use of certain words like soft, and dark strand don’t just come naturally to us as we are speaking, or typing (unless youre a pretty good writer). What exactly is a soft face anyway? Is there such a thing as a hard face? It takes some thinking outside the box to be able to think of those things to say. Heres another one:

EXAMPLE 2: She had always kind of liked Lynn, anyway, but now that she had showered, put on some new clothes, and had her hair done up nice, she thought she looked great.

NOW TRY THIS: She’d always thought Lynn had been good looking, but she looked even better now, clean and pretty. Her dark hair shone under the fluorescent lights, making it look soft and shiny. Amanda had to resist the urge to run her fingers through it.
The second statement really makes you FEEL whats going on. You don’t even know what the character looks like, but you can already see in your mind how pretty she looks. The whole setting just breathes a good vibe.ESPECIALLY to women. Saying things like dark hair shone and "soft and shiny and "resist the urge to run her fingers through it.those kinds of lines can make women feel a much higher emotional attachment to the situation, than if you just blandly and basically describe the situation directly.
LAST EXAMPLE: They went slow this time, and it was all kisses and moans and soft touches. Amanda kissed a trail down Lynns neck, across her stomach, and then even lower. Lynn gasped and tangled her fingers in Amandas dark brown hair, arching off the bed. And then the older womans fingers were sliding along the inside of Amandas thigh, finding their goal and working purposefully. Amanda groaned into the kiss, and Lynn pressed harder, pushed her fingers in deeper. They moved together, twisting beneath the white, cotton sheets.
Now, first of all, I’m not going to even bother TRYING to adapt that situation into how a normal guy would explain it. I’m sure you can see for yourself WHY that paragraph would invoke a strong emotion inside a woman. Hell, it invokes a strong emotional reaction out of ME.

The thing you notice, is how every movement is described in a very sensual and physical manner. Certain words simply make a story sexier. Sliding is better than moving. Tangled is better than grabbed. Kissed a trail down her neck is better than kissed along her neck. See what I’m getting at here? This is the kind of thing you see in womens romance novels. Women like romance novels, and now you see why. They read this kind of language and can actually SEE the women making love. They can visualize the soft touches and the sliding fingers and the tangling of hair. And just getting a clear picture of that stuff, while reading or listening to a soothing story, invokes an emotion that most men NEVER are able to get out of a women.

Now of course, most men are not gifted writers. And I don’t expect every guy to instantly transform into Don Juan overnight. But if you even thumb through a romance novel, just to see examples of this kind of writing, you will get a better idea of how to speak to women in a way that will spark her emotions. This is a GREAT advantage to have, because you could be talking about something that does not involve you AT ALL, but if you are able to use words and describe things in a way that will make her imagine them in a deep, sensual way, she will have a great feeling while listening to you talk.

Emotion is a drug, and like other drugs, it is addicting. If you experience an emotion you enjoy, while you are doing are going to do that something again, to experience the emotion again. She will want to be in your presence now, more and more, if for no other reason than the fact that you sparked an awesome thing inside of her with your ability to tell a story. Obviously you aren’t going to meet a woman in a coffee shop and start talking about women making love on a bed (or maybe you will), but this concept can really be applied to ANYTHING you are talking about.

Go ahead and read a few stories, just to get a grasp of the kinds of words to use. There are also some PUA out there who specialize in this topic, primarily applying it to meeting women on the Internet. Imagine a woman e-mails you and asks you what you do, and you reply by describing your job in a manner somewhat like the one I just showed you. It is HIGHLY likely that she will want to meet you after she reads that. First of all, most men don’t know how to communicate in that sexually appetizing style. And secondly, she is thinking that if you know how to TALK in a sensual, sexually attractive way, that you probably also know how to ACT in a sensual, sexually attractive way.


Scot McKay, X & Y Communications (
What is the most infamous male stereotype when it comes to dating? Certainly the one about men trying every
trick in the book to get a woman to sleep with him has to head the list. No need to elaborate.
The truth is, however, that men don’t necessarily have the market cornered when it comes to keeping their
intentions under the table. Women are quite capable of their fair share. My belief is that the most common
brand of dating trickery proffered by women tends to fly under the radar a bit easier, however, and therefore is
hardly ever (if at all) called out. Since women are a bit more subtle about all of this, I’m going to focus
the majority of this post on understanding their side of the equation. After all, male trickery is altogether
too obvious…which continues to amaze me at how often women fall for it.
So what about the women? What do I mean?
Here it is. Just like men try to trick women into sleeping with them as early as possible in the
relationship, women tend to try to trick men into exclusive commitment way to early.
Its absolutely true.
And a woman has the ability to equip herself with a formidable set of tools when it comes to this stuff.
Just like a woman can find herself in a mans bed and wonder how she got there, a man can very easily find
himself in an exclusive relationship he may not have been ready for–and with a woman who may not even have
been his first choice!
How does she do this? Here are some examples of the tactics involved:
1) The Ultimatum
This is the most objective approach. If a woman knows the man is interested, she will simply level an
ultimatum. This may happen as soon as the woman realizes the man wants her sexually. In this case, the
woman pulls every option off the table other than committing to her or walking away. This is unfair, of
course, because it plays on a mans physical attraction in order to drive emotional involvement.
2) Extended Planning
She’ll buy tickets for a concert thats a month away. She’ll invite him to join her for some killer party
thats a few weeks (or months?) off. If she can get him to make some financial buy in????? (e.g. ticket price,
renting a tux, etc.) then he’ll be more likely to stay around. In fact, the concept of commitment based on
financial involvement is a well-known marketing principle. Here, as in so many facets of dating, sales
tactics translate directly into relationship strategy. Watch for a future newsletter (or how about a podcast?)
on that one.
3) Common Secondary Commitments
This is something like Extended Planning, but with a subtle difference. Here we are talking about ongoing
partnerships rather than one-time events. She may sign them both up for six weeks of salsa lessons. They may
join a dinner party group with other couples knowing that it would be a major embarrassment to have to sever ties
in the event of a breakup. If shes really astute, she’ll buy them season tickets for his favorite team…
4) Marking Territory
As soon as a man invites a woman into his private domain, he opens himself up to the female ritual of territory
marking. If shes hanging out at his house and riding in his car, bear in mind the possibility that she may be
interested in staking her claim to those places vis- -vis other women in his life. Most of us know about the
perfume on the pillow trick, where a woman sprays her perfume on a guys pillow so he can think of her when
hes sleeping. But thats just one of a myriad of ways that a woman can make it improbable, if not impossible,
that another woman would feel comfortable in his home or car.
She can leave a change of clothes on his dresser, “just in case”. She can change shoes in his car and accidentally
leave them behind the passengers seat in the back. She can smear makeup in places he may not notice but another woman
would be sure to. She can brush her hair in the bathroom, all but making sure strands of her hair land in places where
other women might notice. And my all time favorite – she might forget and leave her earrings on the end table in
the living room (or some other place you’ll never see until the next time guests are over).
Whatever happens, you can be sure if its done right most guys will be potentially horrified to invite other women
over (although they shouldn’t be, which is another topic in its own right).
5) Key Introductions
He is introduced to all of her friends. He may even meet her parents, feeling like hes suffered whiplash given how
sudden it was. She may even–if shes mastered the tactic–proactively seek to make friends with his friends. This is
a particularly powerful approach that, if successful, means she has all but inextricably woven herself into his life.
If he ever tries to break up with her, imagine the effect of his own friends calling him out telling him how wrong he
is. Any man who has his choice of great women to an advanced degree knows all too well what it’s like to have his male
friends encourage him to “settle” for a woman whom most of them would have been happy with. This can get out of hand
all too quickly.
6) Gifts
She may buy the guy something nice. Depending upon the limits of her personal resources, we may be talking about
something really nice. Guys famously tend to use this tactic on women, thinking that they can buy their way into a womans
heart. Well, when a guy does something like this it generally backfires. Some women are creeped out by it, some women refuse
nice gifts seeing potential ulterior motives behind them, and others simply take the gifts and offer only a thank you in
The interesting part, however, is that a woman who knows how men think with regard to this process can capitalize upon it to
drive commitment from a man. Think about it – a man attempts to barrage a woman with gifts because he thinks it will help earn
her affections. Why does he think like this? Simple. Because it makes sense to the male mind. If a woman realizes this, she
knows she has an angle with which she can get him to commit.
The problem is that although gift-giving works on a man, its not for the expected reason. Rather than driving a warm fuzzy
nesting reflex, it just flat-out makes him feel guilty if he dumps her after getting such cool stuff from her. Many of us
as men have been conditioned to be too “nice”, and once again it comes back to bite us where it counts.
So whats the common thread here? Not surprisingly, the end result is likely to be the same for tricksters of both the male
and female persuasion. In either case, if the end goal is reached its nothing more than an empty, Pyrrhic victory.
The moral to this story? Save the tricks, be up-front, take things at a mutually-acceptable pace…and have a symmetrical
relationship based on depth and respect rather than guilt or pressure.

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About Bobby Rio I'm Bobby Rio, one of the founders of TSB. I tend to write about what is on my mind so you'll find a mix of self development, social dynamics and dating articles/experiences.  For a collection of some of my favorite articles check them out.