Cliff’s List 9/24/02
Here is another classic Cliff’s List newsletters that I am adding to my archives list. I try to post the best of the old ones. The new ones just aren’t as good.
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> Halbster wrote: So many of these guys are so concerned about hoops,
supplication, neging, power, and David D’Angelo’s always say “NO” principle
(LTR suicide) that they are hurting themselves. I think the subject of
achieving balance here can lead to some interesting and useful discussion.
Many people also need to understand that the tactics and communication
skills that get you laid initially often have to evolve over time if you
want an LTR or want to keep getting laid by the same person. I think this
could be a good discussion topic.
Mad Dash: Totally agreed. I’ve done a fair amount of work with the Mystery
Method and the AoS (Art of Seduction) technique, building up stables of
women which I eventually cut down to a few top-quality girls, and
ultimately a single girl, far above the rest. Through a long process of
trial and error, I discovered a lot about my preferences and what I was
actually searching for, because the last few girls had quite a bit in
common. One of the things that stood out for me was that I discarded the
women who I saw no LTR-potential with. I know a lot of guys bash LTRs, but
I personally see it as a healthy and desirable thing. Anyway …
I’m inclined to agree with Halbster here. I applied the same MM tactics
which work so wonderfully in a short-term seduction scenario on these
women, and they tended to backfire on me. For instance, I dropped a few
hints that I had dated many beautiful women in the past and this made one
of my potential LTRs run for the hills (well, that and one-too-many negs).
Similarly, I’ve had to drop a lot of the MM-stuff that I used in the
beginning with my current LTR, if for no other reason that one has to
remain somewhat unpredictable and inconsistent in their behaviors to fully
keep another’s attention engaged over a long period of time.
My point is that a bar-pickup is different from an AoS-style seduction
which is different from an extended LTR. Although one leads to another,
different tactics are called for. AoS deals with this in the process of
“integration”, where you carefully tear down the illusions you created to
land the HB in the first place … this has to be done carefully over a
period of time, and it isn’t necessarily even always possible. For
instance, I imagine Mystery probably has a lot of problems blowing girls
away with his larger-than-life aura. But what works so well in a club
environment also acts as a barrier to an LTR. Mys … comments?
The character traits needed to sustain these different lifestyles are quite
at odds with each other in many cases, although interestingly enough, not
all. For instance, tip #3: “Soften your start-up”, which calls for
self-restraint of one’s temper, is similar to the PUA-principle of “never
losing your cool”. Accepting influence from a woman (tip #4) can be wildly
seductive, if one doesn’t allow it to get out of control … let’s face it,
most women don’t enjoy being the “boss”. And I personally found tip #5,
“Have High Standards”, to be the most accurate:
“the lower the level of tolerance for bad behavior in the beginning of a
relationship, the happier the couple is down the road”
And indeed, this was happy news for me, because in my LTR, I make it a
point to always be kind, considerate, and gentle, unless she decides to be
a fucking bitch and step over the line, in which case she gets anywhere
from 20 minutes to 2 days of my “he-needs-anger-management-style”
treatment. (It’s important to note here that I’m internally a very stable
person and this intense scolding is really a consciously-applied tactic
that I use to “shape” the relationship. If anyone reading this has real
anger issues, you should get them resolved … they will lead to no good…)
Per Cliff’s comments, I found the “7 principles” overall to be a bit
overly-simplistic, reeking of today’s pop-psychology articles disseminated
as filler in magazines and what-not. I’ve found more applicable techniques
in the AoS, and in such unlikely places as Cialdini’s book on Persuasion
for marketing people (aptly entitled “Persuasion”). One of these principles
I use constantly to reinforce my LTR’s connection to me. It is called the
“Consistency principle”. Essentially, what it comes down to is that once a
woman willingly makes a commitment of any sort, she will tend to filter out
conflicting data that would contradict the wisdom of her commitment.
Cialdini points out an example of a woman who left her neglectful,
unemployed fiance. He eventually managed to convince her that he would
change and took some small steps to demonstrate he was serious. After
awhile, she made the decision to come back to him. Well, we can all guess
what happened … he quickly reverted back to his old unambitious, loser
self and she stayed with him, more determined than ever to “make it work”.
Why? Because once she made the difficult decision to go back to him, she is
under considerable psychological pressure to be “right” … humans
apparently have such a strong need to be right that we tend to filter out
all evidence that we aren’t. Anyway, this is a principle I’ve used in my
LTR with a lot of success (if you must know, after my LTR started blowing
me some shit about how she was thinking of going back to her husband, I
quickly ended things with her, telling her it would never work out, etc.
and not responding to any of her emails. After a few weeks, I dropped her a
short line and she was extremely eager to start things back up again …
she made a conscious decision that she wanted to be with me. I
“reluctantly” took her back, and the husband has been out of the picture
In short, in my transition from PUA to LTR-man, I’ve had to make many
adjustments, most of which involve “toning down” the alpha-characteristics
needed to build a stable and building up a different skillset more suited
towards maintaining a more meaningful relationship.
Cliff’s Comment: I am going to take this spot as an opportunity to make a
comment on LTR’s. I think one of the things that rolls around in the back
of my mind when I approach women is that this is in a lot of ways like
playing Russian Roulette for me. I believe that one of them may catch me
and put an end to my being available. I don’t see many guys thinking about
this this way or at least not commenting about it this way. Comments?
> GameMaster: The only thing that’s unhealthy in this equation is the
public brainwashing that teaches that consciousness raising facilitators
like MDMA, LSD, Psylicybin, Mescalin, and other naturally derived brain
boosters are unhealthy. They aren’t.
Eric H.: Bzzt. Wrong answer, but you’d make a good pusher though… MDMA
isn’t remotely naturally derived from anything(its closest natural relative
is sassafras oil and that has carcinogenic effects due to the safrole
content, and safrole is the stuff they make the MDMA from…getting the
hint) and MDMA can be deadly if you don’t know what you’re doing. I’m not
saying I support the War on (Some) Drugs propaganda but that “A” in MDMA
stands for “amphetamine” and the chemical chain that it’s attached to isn’t
the greatest thing for your body either. MDMA has many great applications
but saying it isn’t unhealthy, when it can easily, from a single dose,
raise the body temp to over 108 degrees F and kill you, is simply blinding
yourself from the truth. MDMA does have some good therapeutic uses but I
don’t think that just anyone should be able to dispense it to themselves
like aspirin as you seem to support.
LSD isn’t really derived from natural sources either unless you consider
using highly toxic chemicals, like chlorine gas, to get a single acid from
a life robbing fungus to be “natural” but at least LSD’s only deadly after
ingesting 13 grams of the stuff (about 130,000 times a normal dosage for
those of you who don’t know…very few drugs have such a high activity and
yet low toxicity level).
Your misguided attitude toward drugs is the reason I think that we should
change “DEA” to mean “Drug Education Agency” or leave it as “Drug
Enforcement Agency” but make it so they’re enforcing the quality of the
drugs, not shutting down the manufacturers. If D.A.R.E. were to actually
educate about drug *abuse* instead of mere “use” then we’d likely be in a
different boat at this time and I wouldn’t have to hear someone on TV
accuse a pot grower of supporting terrorists, or how we need new
BTW, I doubt that R.A.W. shares many of your attitudes since he also tells
people to decide things for themselves as opposed to presenting his
opinions as if they were fact…
> Doc: And I start convo about “This guy with the burger is awesome. I
respect his courage to try pushing his limits like that . This is wild,
bigger than life – this guys hamburger blah, blah, ……what was the
wildest most daring thing you’ve ever done?” (I’ve now told her what I
value – daring, not afraid of challenge….
Ross: I like the fact that you are using something in the environment to
bring this up. Nice opening for the theme and the challenge.
Next, I like that you are eliciting from HER, HER wildest experience,
rather than trying to impose one of your own on her. So you are requiring
HER active participation, as she gives you what information and responses
you need to use.
Guys, pay attention. Don’t confuse this with some kind of mindless
ball-busting. He is being intelligent by stimulating her into revealing
useful information AND offering him usable responses WHILE he sets a
challenge for her to live up to.
> Doc: intensity – and I am challenging her to meet my values.) Now she is
totally into this. She scubas, maybe skydive one day, etc….
Ross: One thing to do here to add even more to the effectiveness is to ask
her, “What is your favorite part of that?” and then watch for her
self-anchors, her responses that YOU can anchor for excitement etc, and for
her trance words that you can re-incorporate into the canned stuff you say
> Doc: Go into Discovery Channel story “this guy on Discovery who designs
amusement park rides…. wanna know what the most important things are in
designing a new ride…..” She is also a shrink so we were exchanging
stories about weird patients (yeah, shrinks talk about their patients for
fun) and she tells me the weirdest experience was of a patient of hers who
once ejaculated in her office while talking to her just by fantasizing
about her. I was killing myself laughing and busted her balls about being
able to make men cum with no contact.
Ross: Now, note she told you this because of the overall topic and theme
you introduced. She’s handing you stuff!
>Doc: o I start teasing her: “You must be good. I wonder if it would work
on me. I mean, I’ve been with some great lovers, but nobody has ever made
me cum without actually touching me. Ha ha.” I cut it short right there
after about 1 hour cause I’m getting kind of bored and don’t want to stale
out. So I get up and put my jacket on without saying a word. She’s confused
and asks if I’m leaving. I say “That was great but I gotta go… come with
me”. Walk out of lounge holding hands. As I go in for a kiss close she
pulls back. I laugh “so all of a sudden you’re shy” (Remember, this girl is
a real player and eats AFCs alive all the time. So I try again. “Wanna kiss
me?” She pushes me back smiling cause now she knows she is in control and
starts saying good bye and walking away. Problem is she is still holding my
hand, saying good bye and pulling me as she walks away. I start laughing at
her out loud and she asks why I’m laughing. So I say “you’re funny. I think
you don’t really know what you want or you don’t have the courage to really
take a risk cause you tell me you don’t want to kiss me and then say good
bye, but you won’t let go of my hand and are pulling me towards you. What’s
up with that? ha ha ha.”
Ross: Now, this is great. He is establishing his authority in her world by
describing EXACTLY what is happening with her.
> Doc: HB answers “I’m not sure I want to be intimate with you yet”. I
say “Intimate? I’m not that easy. I am very selective about who I chose to
be intimate with, and that person has to have a lot to offer. I mean, I
don’t just want some fast food sex with someone who is only about looks…
I want a gourmet meal that is going to be a sensual experience with someone
who can turn me on body, mind and soul. And frankly I don’t know that you
are that type of person … You really haven’t given me any reason to even
WANT to be intimate with you!” HB “Then why are you here with me?” Me “Do
you think that just because I accept to go out with you means that I want
to sleep with you..HA HA. That’s pretty chauvinistic. Could you imagine if
a guy said that “Just cause the girl is out on a date with me means that
she wants to sleep with me…” You’re pretty macho for a girl..a real
chauvinist pig.” Instantly she is floored. I don’t think that anyone has
ever turned this girl down in her entire life…. for ANYTHING. Especially
not for sex. I can see the hamsters in her head spinning in overtime… she
has never had this situation. She has always pushed guys away. She is in
damage control now.
Ross: Great. You are breaking her frame. Well done, AND what also makes
this work is the accuracy with which you are demonstrating you understand
> Doc: She breaks a long silence (I never broke eye contact with her).
She says “I have to admit, I feel so vulnerable right now. I don’t know
what to do. I mean I like you a lot but I’m afraid that I’ll lose you if I
don’t do the right thing. Don’t pull back ok?” Then she leans in for the
kiss and invites me to her place. I turn her down and say, “maybe next
time, I’m not sure about you yet”. She calls me the same night and asks me
to come over again (testing to see if she can regain control). Turn her
down again. She’s disappointed and now she’s losing me, so I throw in “I
have some free time tomorrow at noon, bring lunch and you could come by my
place”. Closed the deal there and fucked her at my place.
Ross: Great job. Guys, this was NOT just about attitude. It was also about
intelligence; understanding HER world and SHOWING her he could be a unique
experience for her. The intelligence AND the attitude have to be there.
>Mystery: And you don’t get in a relationship and you don’t have a chance
to give her the doubt she needs by showing her the logical fallacies that
exist in her believing in all the nonsense. So what is the entire point of
this train of thought? This: If you look only for the SMART girls, you’ll
be a very lonely boy.
Maximillian Hell: I’ve come across a solution to this issue that so far
works for me. If a convo is flagging, I do a poll that potentially puts me
in the position of an interested skeptic. I try to speak with a gentle
manner, so if the HB is embarrassed of her beliefs, I can draw them out of
her, but at the same time I do not necessarily come across as a believer,
just in case she is someone like me, who finds this stuff to be utter
nonsense. It runs sort of like this: “A friend of mine claims that the
majority of people believe in astrology, psychic phenomenon, the
supernatural. Do you think this is true? Do you believe in
these things? Do you read the astrology column? Would you act
on advice in the column? Have you read any books on the supernatural? What
do you recommend? Do you think spells work? etc. etc.
I had meant to mention this only after I collected a larger set of results.
I’ve only done it twice so far–on a business student (9, Texan) and a law
student (9, Belgian). So far, negative. They read the astrology column, but
don’t alter their behavior because of it. Both clearly seemed skeptical of
the paranormal, so I let the subject drop after the astrology questions.
On the other hand: perhaps we are taking the wrong approach. Perhaps
blatantly mismatching them, telling them how ridiculous their belief in the
paranormal is, and in no uncertain terms, would be the way to go.
This would allow us to maintain congruence and set a manly, authoritative
frame. I did get into such a debate with an HB, and I do believe that it
sparked alot of attraction (unfortunately, her friends were tired and
wanted to drive back home to Canada, though she was keen to take up our
invitation to crash at our place for the night).
I would like to know about how many times a person can blow off an HB’s
advances and then finally go for a close? Through personality, intrigue,
story telling, social proof and tidbits of SS patterning, I successfully
attracted this HB to me based on her actions to me (she started saying
goodbye to me when she left this bar we hung out at whereas before she
didn’t, she would ask me to play darts, she would lean against me subtly,
she bumped into me, she acted like she was falling down in front of me so I
was forced to catch her, etc.).
Anyway, in part out of revenge and some fear of her game playing that I
have come to expect from HBs, I became something of a cunt tease. I never
reciprocated her advances by going for a number or try to get her to go
someplace else. She goes through a lot of guys and seems to get whatever
she wants from her parents and manipulates/blows off guys. She once tried
to get me jealous (it did work actually to an extent) by dragging a guy
that I was talking to into the bathroom to give him a bj. She later had a
fling with this guy as well. Once when I didn’t pursue her after she
thought I would, she became upset and became cold to me. A couple of weeks
later she flirted with me again and I told her that she had a lot going for
her, implying that I was rejecting her. Then to top it off, I asked her
father who I knew to ask if she had any friends she could help me meet (get
her even more jealous ). But like I say, this wasn’t purely motivated by
revenge (for the ways women have treated me), I was somewhat following my
previous script as well that has come to expect failure. After all of this,
is there any chance of going for the gold with this one?
Gold Dragon Phoenix:
> Halbster: Seven Unexpected Keys to a Happy Marriage John Gottman has a
90% success rate at picking out which couples will get divorced and which
couples won’t. He has identified 7 keys to an effective marriage. I think #
4 is especially interesting for members of this list.
Gold Dragon Phoenix: This is an interesting subject, although I think it’s
important to avoid the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, as well as
differentiate between a happy marriage and a marriage which doesn’t end in
divorce. I think everyone knows a few marriages which are unhappy, but the
couple stays together anyway. A classic example is “staying together for
In addition, I personally don’t consider the Seven Keys all that
unexpected. Even # 4 which Halbster says is “especially interesting for
members of this list” seems obvious. If a woman never gets her way, she’ll
probably leave, unless she has serious self esteem issues. On the other
side of the coin, women who always get their way tend to get bored. As in
many areas of life, the key is to find the proper balance between the
“sound bite” extremes.
Tony B. (aka Number_One_Stunner- DalNet #pickup):
There has been a lot of talk when training AFC’s to become “PUA’s” about
not buying a girl her drinks or paying for her any time until you have
slept with, or are dating her. I would like to say this technique doesn’t
have a universal application to ALL of the mentality that a “PUA” should
Recently I was out with this girl who seems to have her head on her
shoulders and is very set in some of her values, as she seems to know what
she wants out of a man. Her idea of chivalry does include a guy picking up
the check if they ask her out for a drink. The first time we met, I didn’t
pay for anything nor did she ask me to. When I called her to ask her to
meet at a local restaurant/bar she began to tell me how it’s her idea of
chivalry to be taken care of, it’s her way of really knowing that she’s
being wooed and to made to feel special.
Being the dumbass that I was, I had her pay for all of her drinks. Hence,
giving her the image that I was some cheap asshole that doesn’t have a
chivalrous bone in my body. She then talked to her friends, her sister,
mother and a few other people, all of which completely agreed with her.
Then I saw her again after that and had some of my friends along with us,
somehow this became the topic that I didn’t pay for her drinks last time I
asked her out; they disagreed with my statement as well. Then the day
after, I talked to even more people about this, almost every person I
talked to said something to the sort of “are you some sort of cheap ass?”
I don’t know, I mean it seems like everyone just wants to reframe the idea
that being nice or chivalrous doesn’t include taking care of her, showing
her that you are a provider or whatever. I have read in the book “48 Laws
of Power” (Robert Greene) that moving your money around freely gives a lot
more of a powerful edge than being cheap. I have only seen evidence in that
It seems, all we see in seduction are reframes that say “no, I’m just
different than the men you have gone out with that kiss your ass”. Well
boys, it seems to me that in every aspect of NON-SS, NON-PUA related
material, that the girl wants to feel special and that they do want to have
their ass kissed a little bit to know that you know how to make her feel
special. So just be careful of how closely you stick to this rule.
Almost every tiny aspect of seduction that I have studied in the past 3
years says that women choose their mate cause he makes her feel like a
princess. So be careful of how much of a megalomaniac you become cause you
just might talk yourself out of her panties by giving off the attitude that
you are better than anyone else, or that you are different than anyone
else. She’ll figure that out on her own, your words aren’t what are going
to do that. Social Proof is a much more powerful element than words…..
For example “I have tons of friends” doesn’t sound/look half as good as
your tons of friends walking up to say “hello” to you while you out with
her. The same thing goes for seduction in my opinion; IF you really are
different, leave that up for her to see, the words are a lot less powerful
than the actions. And often, the less you say about yourself, the more
mystery that is created for her to want to be around you more often to find
out those things that make you and her have that connection.
I have been practicing the “rules” of PUA for nearly 2.5 years, about 1
year of that I have had great confidence and done everything “by the book”,
showing little to no success. After I read “48 Laws of power” and began to
practice the ideas that were presented to me in that book, I have had a lot
easier time getting to know people and getting a lot more out of life than
what I used to. Some of the examples in the book include “Pose as a friend,
work as a spy” a great little communication tool that will help you
understand how to use the words that other people choose to understand what
they want and how to get what you want to out of them by appealing to their
desires. Another concept, applicable to the original topic I was discussing
“Despise the free lunch” where it clearly states that not making an object
of how much money you spend, something that is typical of many people in
great positions of power. Also, “Disdain what you cannot have”, also
applicable to this same topic; Making an issue out of something you cannot
control will make it come to a larger focus and will present your image
less powerful, or putting too much attention into something such as money
will make it look as if you have none, for some, that may be the case, but
to not make issues out of that with the people you communicate with will
make it less of the focus and that you don’t care about what you cannot
Overall living within a certain position of “power” will alone make the
girls know that you are in charge and you won’t have to stoop to being a
prick that won’t pay for her drinks or whatever. Remember, girls will have
sex with you cause they feel as if they would be comfortable in a
relationship with you, if you don’t meet the criteria of providing for her
the way that she believes she needs to be provided for, you probably aren’t
gonna get laid as easily. Remember, we are the men, we hold the cards, we
are the “kings of the jungle” who provide for our young and our mate.
I know that there are a lot of people that may be confused by this post
cause of the fact that so many different reports say not to pay for her or
whatever.. The main idea I am trying to convey here is NOT buying her
drinks or whatever to get anything at all from her, it’s just a simple way
of displaying yourself as a provider and that you aren’t some cheap (or
even worse, poor) dude.
Tony Montana (Scarface): “In this country, you gotta make the money first.
Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the
power, then you get the women.”
I would like to hear comments about this, perhaps SOME of what I said may
be incorrect, but I would like to hear reasonable discussions rebutting it,
rather not a “flame”.
Want more power to your Seduction and sales arsenal? Try these:
“48 Laws of Power” Robert Greene
“Art of War” Sun-Tzu
“Art of War for lovers” (Sun-Tzu 4th century B.C.) translated by Dr. Cowan
“Art of Seduction” Robert Greene
“The Prince” Niccolo Machiavelli
“How to talk a woman into Sex” Playboy Magazine, October 2003
Cliff’s Comment: I once went out with a very hot little number that I had
met at a trade show. She offered to pay for herself at the end of the meal
and without going into details, I went along with it. I later found out
from various sources that this was a test and that I had failed
miserably. She wasn’t interested to get together again. My usual way of
dealing with this (which I knew at the time and didn’t use for no
explainable reason), is that if they offer to pay I tell them that it is my
pleasure to pay for them but if they want to pay, no problem. I make sure
they understand that it is meaningless to me either way so I take the
importance out of the situation. I think it’s not worth it to make an
issue of this – the bigger issue is that this discussion seems to come at
the situation from the “dating frame” and not a “friends with benefits frame.”
Do girls leave you confused as to whether or not they like you?
Let's face it. Girl's don't make it easy for you. She will often send mixed signals leaving you unable to tell if she is being friendly or flirty. If you read her signals wrong you risk rejection and embarrassment. Or worse, you blow it with a girl who wanted to kiss you.
Here is a simple and innocent move that will instantly tell you if you're in the friend zone, or if she's waiting for you to kiss her.
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About MikeStoute Michael Stoute here, and at your service. I am a writer/editor/lover and a fighter. My words are weapons of wisdom so watch out, you may learn something...or better yet, maybe you can teach me something! Have a question? Please try to leave it in the comments, it will get a faster response than an email. Otherwise, Email Me