Cliff’s LIst 1/18/03

Reading Neal Straus’s The Game got me a little nostalgic for the good old days when the community was still unknown to most, and all the gurus were still actually out there hunting pussy. I went back through some old Cliff’s list newsletters and thought I would post them up here for time to time. They are fun to read and filled with valuable tips. Leave me a comment letting me know what you think.

Swinggcat: author of the great ebook Real World Seduction

How the Game is Really Played: SWINGGCAT on Qualifying & Challenging:
Guys, I have been in this community for three years and have had some great
success. But a couple of months ago I started doing something very different.
Since then, my success has soared. The influence of guys like RJ, Rick, Mystery,
Style, Nathan, Juggler, and Rio has definitely pushed me in the right direction.
And even though I still use bits and pieces of what I have learned from other
systems, I am now doing something very different. I feel that I have really come
into my own as a PUA. That is to say, I no longer do pure DYD, SS, or MM; I just
do swinggcat.

Moving Forward:

Qualifying & Challenging them:
What I am going to suggest is going to sound a bit odd to you but it absolutely
works. And what I am going to suggest is designed for really hot adventurous
girls–that’s what I screen for. This shit really works for me: meaning that
when I go to bars lately I am at the very least consistently making out with
girls. And often times, getting them to buy into the frame of doing a threesome
with me.

Almost, as soon as I start talking to a chick, I begin qualifying her. For
example, I might say to them: you seem like you might be adventurous, are you?
If they say yes (which they often times do, and if they don’t, then I am not
interested in them anyways), then I say:

“Good because if you weren’t I was going to walk away because I am only friends
with adventurous people…And even though you might be adventurous, I don’t know
if this relationship is going to work out because I am not sure you can handle

Then I will do the same thing about spontaneity.

Are you spontaneous? Good, then we can hang out. But I don’t know how
spontaneous you are yet, so I can’t take you to any of my cool places yet.

Then I will ask them about the craziest place they ever had sex (now some of you
are thinking: how can he do this so early on in the conversation? The reason I
“can” is that I have already gotten them to commit to being adventurous and
spontaneous, so, through the principle of commitment and consistency, they have
to be consistent with what they have committed to. If they act prudish, then
they will come across as if they are lying about being adventurous and
spontaneous). Then they will usually ask me: where craziest place I ever had sex
was. Then I go into a variant of Style’s “fucked my girlfriend at a sex show in
a foreign country” story.
Then I continue qualifying them by telling them that I am only friends with
girls who are into girls too (this sets the stage for threesome activities). If
they say, “no”, then I tell them that we could never be friends because she
cannot hang with my level of adventure (it is funny to see how many girls become
bi after this).

Then I talk about kissing. Then I say to them: on a scale of 1-10 how good of a
kisser are you. They usually will say a ten (hot chicks want to sustain their
value as a hot chick). Then I kiss them. Why does this work? This works because
I am challenging three things she has committed to being true about who she is:
How adventurous she is, how spontaneous she is, and how good of a kisser she is.
Some of you might not be getting this yet, so let I will go a little more in
depth on what I am up to.
Making myself appear vulnerable:
Not only does qualifying and challenging work, it dispels any player vibe they
had about me because I am making myself vulnerable. In other words, I am telling
the chick that I am a sucker for adventurous, spontaneous bi girls—I am telling
them how to seduce me. But here’s the catch: as soon as she does not play by my
rules, I close up. So, I am a vulnerable guy as long as she is playing by my
rules. As soon as she isn’t, I become cold and aloof. Or even worse, I next her.
Push-pull theory:
Another distinction we can make when Qualifying & Challenging is pushing and
pulling. I think all good Qualifying & Challenging uses pushing and pulling.

First off, what do I mean by pushing and pulling?

To push is to push the girl away from you

To pull is to pull the girl into you.

So, for example, when I say, “You seem like you might be adventurous” I am
pulling her in. And when I say, “Are you? Because I am only friends with
adventurous people” I am pushing her away. And when I say, “Good, then we can be
friends” I am pulling her in. And when I say, “But when we hang out I am not
going to take you to any of my cool places yet, because I do not know how
adventurous you really are” I am pushing her away.

In other words, when she meets my qualifications I pull her in. And then I push
her away with higher qualifications.
EVing (Eliciting Values):
A couple years ago I use to do that a lot. But now I know that this is really
just a sophisticated form of supplication. I mean it is coming from the wrong
frame: you are giving her the opportunity to screen you.
Now I do just the opposite: I tell them what I want and if they say they possess
my values then I challenge the hell out of them to see if they are being honest
with me.
Reframing shit tests into challenges:
When I say, “shit test” I mean anything that interferes with or is not conducive
with either the frame I have set or the intended direction I am taking the
interaction in. Put in other words, anytime she attempts to reset, interrupt, or
supersede the frame I have set in a negative way, I am being shit tested.
So, when a girl throws shit tests at us such as, ‘do you do this on all the
ladies’ and ‘how old are you? how do we reframe them into challenges?
One thing to keep in mind is that you never want to respond to a shit test
directly. Now, that is not to say, you want be the sort of guy that never
addresses a woman’s question in direct way. What I am saying is that you never
want to address a shit test at the same logical level or within the shit test’s
frame (Remember: a ‘shit test’ is an attempt to negatively change the frame we
are trying to set). Why? Because this reinforces and acknowledges their frame.
So how do we handle shit tests? What I like to do is reframe the meaning of
their shit tests. When they shit test me, I turn it around by accusing them of
subscribing to values or having attributes that are undesirable. Then I
challenge them to refute my accusation. This works fucking great.
Let me give you two examples of this from real life (as you will read in the
field reports bellow, these examples are situations that have actually
Suppose that a guy approaches a confident hot girl who is up for a challenge and
does not like rejection. Now suppose the guy runs some routines on her. Suppose
the girl then says to him, “Nice stuff: how many other girls have you done this
to?” An AFC would try to address the question within the same frame or at the
same logical level huge mistake! Instead, say something like this:
“No, I only do this on girls who seem adventurous because I am only friends with
adventurous people. And you seemed adventurous. But maybe you’re not, maybe I
was wrong about you. If that is the case, then this relationship will never work
Now often times they will then tell me how adventurous they are. Now who is
qualifying who? Who is controlling the frame?
Lets look at one more example. This is another one that has happened to me in
real life.
There is a certain way girls say, “How old are you?” that means they are about
to shit test you (whether it be that you are supposedly too young or too old for
So I tell them how old I am and then ask them. Then I say, “well, you are like
ninety years old in girl years so, this relationship will never work out, your
just too old for me. And woman like yourself probably couldn’t keep up with a
young stallion like sexy me.” (If they are really hot I will add, “you remind
me of my grandmother who is one adventurous old hag, so, she is cool…are you
adventurous? Good, then you have permission to hang out with her. I think the
two of you are going to be the best of friends Aw, you are so cute.”)
I have never gotten a bad reaction from this.
This works on so many levels. One is that when you say, “you are too old for me”
you are now qualifying them, not the other way around. Another thing you are
doing is taking their stupid judgmental chick logic and applying it back to them
in an even more absurd humorous way very powerful indeed.
Screening chicks without slamming the door:
The goal is to screen out bad behaviors, not them. You always want to leave
enough room for them to change their behavior (we have to be careful here
because the goal is still to set the frame that you are screening them and that
anything that falls short of your standards is not tolerated).



So, anytime a girl displays one of my values, she is tentatively qualified. And
anytime she either fails to display or displays one of my anti-values, she is
temporarily disqualified. But I almost never slam the door on them completely.
If we make plans to do something crazy and she chickens out (I like this better
than flake because it implies a very different message) I will tell her
something like this:
“You know, I thought you were a cool girl who was adventurous and didn’t flake.
But maybe I misjudged you, maybe I was wrong about you, etc., etc.”

All righty thenWe? get the general idea: Bust on them, but always leave enough
room for them to improve.
So if you are talking to some chick, and she does something that is one of your
AVs(anti-values), say:
“I don’t think this relationship is going to work out because you are like this
and I like that.”

And then feel free to walk away. However, if later in the night she does
something to prove to you that she does not have one of your anti-values (or
that she has one of your values that you thought she did not have) then by all
means, do not slam the door in her face.
This is how the game is played boys.
Below I have provided three field reports as examples of how this is done.
Consider the above to be a Cliff Notes version of the field reports I have
provided below.
Wednesday night December 18:
A buddy and me decide to go out and do some serious sarging. We meet at a bar at
around ten. We blow up a couple of sets and then take off. Next, we decide to go
to the Standard Lounge (this is a very trendy, difficult to get into Hollywood
lounge). Surprisingly, they let us right in. So we walk inside and it is fucking
unbelievable: Hef is there with all his girlfriends and there are more 10s per
square inch than any club or lounge I have been to in a long time. My wing and I
jump into a great set with a solid nine and she is really digging me. Her friend
tries to drag her away from me, but she doesn’t want to leave me—huge IOI. Did I
number close her? No, I am a big wuss. So after this, I am in a bad mood.
Meanwhile, my buddy is chatting up this very cute girl with pigtails (we will
call her HBpigtails). I can tell by this girl’s body language that she is really
playful and adventurous. So, I tell my friend that it is so on and that he
should kiss her. He tries to kiss her, she kisses him back but then pulls away
after a few seconds. So, I jump in by spouting, “Hey woman, you better get your
hands off my man.” “Are you two together?” she replies. “Yes” I say. The three
of us start dancing: me in the front, my buddy from behind, and her sandwiched
in the middle. After dancing for a while, I whisper in her ear: You seem like
fun, do you cook and clean? “Yes she says. And I say, “what dish do you cook
the best?” She names some Indian dish (BTW, she is a white girl, not Indian). I
tell her that I love Indian food and that since she seems cool she has
permission to come over one evening and cook my boyfriend and I Indian food, but
that she shouldn’t get any funny ideas: I mean just because she is a good cook
does not mean we are going to turn straight for her or anything. [note: she
knows we are not really gay, considering we had been fondling her while
dancing]. She laughs. Then I tell her that she might be a good candidate for the
third wheel in our relationship but to not hold her breath because we have a lot
of other people lined up for the job. [note: I am doing seductive role playing
(or what Kooper calls “setting cocky funny frames”). This sets a context for me
to embed some pretty strong frames. Also, since it is “role playing” and not
real, it makes it okay to be sexual. Remember: all women want to be sexual, but
due to social conditioning, they often times need an excuse. Role-playing is a
useful way to evoke a chick’s sexuality] More giggles. Then I say, “One thing I
don’t tolerate is drama, and you seem like you might be drama honey, so, I am
not sure you are going to make the cut”. She says, “I am not drama. People who
are ‘drama’ are fake and I am real”. I continue her thought by saying, “and
people who are real can really live life: they live in the moment and are
spontaneous”. She agrees. So, I say to her in an enthusiastic little boy tone:
Hey, what do you say we get out of here, and go to a gay bar dancing (Remember:
I am still maintaining the role playing theme “my boyfriend and I are looking
for a third wheel in our relationship”). She is a little hesitant but likes the
idea. She says that she has to tell her friends she is leaving before she leaves
with us [one thing I should mention: at this point I had already gotten
permission from my wing to hit on this girl. The plan was to take her back to a
place and fuck her].
So we find one of her friends and he asks us how we know each other. I tell him
that we are actually brother and sister. Then I start fondling her and telling
him that the relationship is a bit incestuous. She plays along and puts her hand
on my ass (notice that I am using another seduction role playing theme to get
physical with her). She says she has to use the bathroom but wants to make sure
we don’t leave without her. So she leaves her purse with me. When she comes back
she tells me that she wants to take her own car and follow us to the club. So I
ask her where she is parked. After she tells me, I tell her that her car is
parked closer than my friend’s car and that it would make sense for her to drive
us to his car. She agrees, we jump in her car, I take shotgun of course, and off
we go to my friend’s car.
When we get to the area where my friend parked his car, we don’t see his car. So
he tells us that he is going to go look for it. So, he hops out of her car to go
look for his car. So I begin to escalate the situation. We start making out. She
is really into it and now I know it so on.
My friend comes back to inform us that his car has been towed. Now he is about
to suggest that she take us to my car so him and I can go to the towing place.
But before he can say this, I say, “Fuck: him and I came in the same car.” She
asks us what we want to do. I tell her that the tow place is open twenty-four
hours, and we shouldn’t let this be a damper on our evening. We should go to the
club and have a great time (now I am really BSing her because there is no club
open at this time). My friend does not realize this and insists on us taking him
to his car. So we take him to the tow place, drop him off and off we go to the
supposed club. Now when we get to the club, it is closed—what a shocker! She
looks really disappointed. Thus, I suggest we go back to my place for some
drinking. She’s down.
On the way to my house I am joking with her. Then I share my values with her.
She acquiesces to them all. I tell her: honey, you lucked out because if you
were missing even one of those things I was going to break up with you (said
very playfully, of course). She playfully punches me and says, “fucker”(I love
when chicks do this because it means: you win and they hate ya but they love
ya). We stop at a gas station and I tell her that I am thirsty, so, she buys me
bottled water. Then I call Style on her cell. Style talks to her and tells me
says she sounds bubbly. When we get to my house, I show her around and then we
start play fighting, in which she proceeds to get on top of me. We start making
out and then I do the one hand bra snap. She says, ” have you done this to like
a hundred women or something?” I say, ” nope, I have only done this to a
thousand.”( Guys, when girl accuse you of player behavior, don’t squirm. Instead
escalate it). We mess around a little more and then I suggest that we go skinny
dipping in my Jacuzzi (I have great a Jacuzzi that is on top of this deck that
overlooks the whole valley). However, when we go up to the Jacuzzi, there is no
water in it. Doesn’t matter, she is very enthralled with the stars. So I make up
some bullshit about the stars representing certain Greek gods. She loves it. We
start making out again. And then she starts giving me head. But it is so fucking
cold that I suggest we go inside (Also this is a take-away of sorts).
We go inside and she goes to use the bathroom. She is gone for a really long
time (note: she is probably looking through my shit: typical chick behavior).
When she comes back I say, “Your not some Al-Qaeda member trying to plant a bomb
in my house, are you?” “Asshole” she says, “I would have fucked you.” (guys,
this is a shit test). So I say, “what makes you think I want to sleep with you
yet?” she says, “what?!” and say, “I think you need to change the battery on
your miracle ear.” This gets big laughs. We watch TV for a while. Then out of
nowhere I turn off the TV. She asks: “why are you turning off the TV?” “Well” I
say, ” because I am going to bed.” Next she follows me into the bedroom and we
go to bed. Yea right! But seriously guys: for the first hour I don’t touch.
During this hour she is trying to touch me trying to get me turned on and I am
just ignoring her. Thus she says, “What’s wrong?” So I tell her:! it’s not you,
it’s me; I’m tired. Well, finally I do give in. I start by cuddling and smelling
her. She starts getting really worked up. I start doing other types of foreplay
but refrain from fucking her at this moment. I continue this until she is
begging me to put it inside her so elapsed foreplay time is about forty-five
minutes. So, then I start fucking her really hard for a long time sex was really
good. In the morning I have her take me back to my car, which was still on
Saturday December 20th:
Some friends of mine invite me to go to Las Palmas a trendy LA nightclub. I
decide to meet them at the club. I show up to the club solo. Since I am there
after ten, the line to get in is horrendous. And to make matters worse, they are
only letting girls in. At this point I am seriously thinking about leaving I
have no patience for bullshit. Then one of the club promoters that I know shows
up and tells the bouncer to let me in. The bouncer says he will let me inside in
just one second. But he doesn’t fucking bastard. So, I start flirting with the
woman in charge of the guest list. I tell her that I am solo and all of my
friends are inside and that the promoter told the bouncer to let me in, but he
didn’t. She gives the bouncer shit for this and he lets me in.
Next, I find my friends on the patio one of whom looks like an Albino Gary
Coleman (BTW, he is the genesis of the albino Gary Coleman pick up line). They
are with two girls both very hot indeed. But one of the girls drank too much and
is sick, so, the girls decide to go home. My friends are pissed because they
spent a lot of money on these girls. So, I suggest we go pick up new girls.
Next, one of my friends hits the dance floor; while the Albino Gary Coleman guy
and I hit the patio. I start opening sets and I am really on fire. During one of
my sets, my target cuts me off to talk to her friend. So I punish her by talking
to the girl behind her (This ends up being my new target).
I notice she has a ring on her middle finger. So, I open with the ring routine.
I say to her, ” Why do you wear your ring on that finger? She says, “I don’t
know; it just fits, why?” So I tell her that according to the Greeks she is
making a psychological statement about herself. She asks me what it means. So, I
take her hand and start rubbing her middle finger, look at her hand, then at
her, and then I cut her off by telling her, “hold on: I need to talk to my
friend for a second”. While I am talking to my friend she is waiting there like
a little eager puppy dog. Still holding onto her hand I turn back to her and
say, “where were we?” She says, ” you were telling me that wearing a ring on
this finger means something about me.” “That’s right” I say, “Well the Greeks
believed that the middle finger was the ring of Dionysus. And Dionysus was the
God of chaos. They also believed that it was the ring of Apollo who was the God
of order. So, the middle finger means that you are the sort of person that when
something comes along that you really want your emotions take over you but
before you go for it, you have to find all your own reasons.” She seems not to
buy it at first. So, I say to her, “if this isn’t true about you, then, honey,
you need to put it on another finger”. She says, ” no, no? actually your dead on:
I am very much so that way”. She asks me about another finger that she has a
ring on and I tell her that the Greeks believed that wearing a ring on that
finger is a sign of bisexuality. And I ask her if she likes guys or girls more.
She admits to liking girls but says that she likes men more. And I say,
“exactly, you like girls but every once in a while you need some deep
dicking”(ballsy yes, but I have never been slapped from saying this). She laughs
and agrees. Then I turn my back on her and talk to my friend for just long
enough, but not so long that she gets up and walks away. When I turn back around
her arms are crossed. I say to her, “Your arms are crossed, are you cold.” She
says, “No” and then proceeds to uncross her arms. I say, “much better, that was
unacceptable but I am not mad at you I mean crossing your arms is bad etiquette
but you do it because what was your relationship with your dad?” she says” um”
and I say, ” it was tumultuous, wasn’t it?” She says “yes” and I say, “I can
look at your eyes see that you are still a little girl; there is a side to you
that is very adventurous. But sometimes, since you were hurt in the past, you
don’t let it out. And the times that you were most happy in life was when you
could trust the moment and really enjoy yourself. But sometimes that’s hard for
you to do. And I am only friends with people who are adventurous, so, I don’t
know if your level of adventurism is up to mine. So I don’t know if this
relationship will work out.” Then I turn my head (I do this very dramatic, yet
playful). She hits me on the arm with a smile on her face and says, “stop” (this
is a huge IOI). She then proceeds to ask me about some after hours club. I tell
her that it must not be that cool. She asks, “Why?” and I tell her “because I
have never heard of it”. She says that it is a fetish club and proceeds to show
me her whip. I tell her that I think her and I would probably make a bad couple
because we are both dominant lovers and that I am not sure if she is woman
enough to be with a man as strong as me. She tells me that most men can’t handle
her. And I tell her that most women can’t handle me: they fall in love and then
become needy. And I don’t tolerate women who are needy. She tells me that she is
not needy (who is jumping through who’s hoops now?!) I tell her that I don’t go
to fetish clubs but that I am into swinger clubs( I had an intuition that this
would be good). Her eyes light up and she tells me that she is just getting into
the scene (bingo). We talk extensively about it (I am really BSing because I
know next to nothing about the scene). Then I tell her: “my girlfriend and I are
looking for a playmate, are you game?” She says: “Maybe”. I tell her that I have
to get back to my friends but that if she wants to play, she should write down
her number. She says, “Yes, I do want to play” and proceeds to write down her
number. Then I go into something similar to Ross’ SRT. She tells me to stop
because I am making her think about all sorts of things and that she hasn’t been
fucked really hard in a long time. I use some negation on her. Then she says
that I am being very aggressive and forward. I say, ” Yes I am very aggressive
and forward, and I don’t know if you are woman enough to handle me”. She just
looks at me like a deer in headlights.
Then I ask her where the craziest place she has ever has sex was. She tells me
about being pounded by some guy at a swingers’ party while a crowd of people
watched. Then she proceeds to tell me that her ex-lover was embarrassed to whip
out his cock in front of other people (shit test). Then she asks me where the
craziest place I ever had sex was. I go into a story about how my ex girlfriend
and I got on stage and fucked at a sex show while traveling in a foreign country
(this story was inspired by Style? very money indeed).
Then I say to her, “on a scale of 1-10 how good of a kisser are you?” She says a
ten. I say, ” lets find out”. I lean over and we start making out (a little bit
too much tongue for my taste; but she was trainable). Then I say to her in a
little boy tone, “what do you say we go find a girl and bring her home with us?”
She says, “yes”(Now at this point I wanted to cry tears of joy: was this really
happening to me?! But I kept my cool and acted like this was a normal everyday
thing for me).
We then attempt to pick up some girls: I try and hook her up with some of the
girls I had sarged earlier in the night and we try and pick up some new ones as
well. But none end up being sure deals and the club is closing, so, I tell her
we should go to a strip club to pick up girls. She is down but tells me that she
has to find out if her friends want to go as well. Meanwhile, one of the girls I
had sarged earlier finds me. I start screening and challenging her too. Right
before I kiss her, my bi girl finds me and tells me that her friends are down to
go to a strip club. I meet her friends. They are cool and we all get along (BTW,
they all ended up to be swingers).
So the first club I take them to ends up being closed. I am thinking: fuck fuck
and fuck. I then suggest that we go to another club down the street called “The
body shop”. At first her friends bitch about the twenty-dollar cover, but I
successfully persuade them all to go inside.
For the first hour her and I are making out and I manage to take her in the back
and finger her. She is telling me how she wants to be man handled and fucked
really hard guys I was considering taking her out of the club at this point and
fucking her in my car. Then I tell her that we only have an hour and we need to
get a girl. She is down but does not know what to do. So I tell her, “have you
ever picked a girl up in a bar?” She says, ” yes” and I say, “well it is really
the same thing”. This works great. She ends up making out with this Hispanic
stripper. The Hispanic stripper is down to come back but she wants to bring her
boyfriend to watch. I am not down with this way too weird for me. We get some
bites from some of the other girls, but none end up coming back on this night.
Her and her friend wanted to come to my house. She wanted to fuck me in front of
her guy friends, one of which was very jealous of me. At this point I told them
that I was tired and opted to call it a night. A couple days later I realized
that I had managed to lose her number (Damn, I suck in regards to not losing


Saturday January 4:
My Albino Gary Coleman friend invites a friend of mine and I to Las Palmas. When
we show up, my GC friend informs me that my bi girl is here. Furthermore, he
tells me that she was telling him how much fun she had picking up other girls
with me. And that she was mad that I never called her. I find her and she is
with the same group of people she was with the week before, plus one of her
lovers? a dominant bi fem. Later in the night, one of the swinger guys and I are
sitting in the patio area when all of the sudden the dominant bi fem starts
giving us a lap dance. He starts spanking her and then I start spanking her. She
then lifts up her skirt, revealing her panties. Then she moves her panties out
of the way revealing her pussy while she was being spanked (I have to admit that
I was getting a bit aroused, yet I had a feeling that she was trouble). Next,
she starts giving my bi girl a lap dance– and the next thing I know, the two
girls are making out. They want to do a threesome but I am not down for two
reasons: One is that I sense the dom could cause problems; and two, is that Rick
told me that it is dangerous to do a threesome with girls you have not already
fucked solo. Rick told me that this is a good way to get excluded from the
When I get home, there are messages from her saying that her and her bi dom fem
friend want to come over. But I do not call her back. I need to fuck her solo
New Years Eve:
A couple of friends and I decide to go to Vegas and hang out with Rick for New
Years Vegas baby Vegas. We go to the Palms and start our night off sarging at a
lounge called “#9”. We warm up on several sets and then adjourn over to club
“Rain”. I do several sets and then I find this very hot HB tall blonde with a
very pretty face and huge fake tits ?just my type? yea baby yea. We start talking
and then I say to her, “you know what: You are an observer.” “What do you mean,
I am an observer?” she says. “Well,” I say, “you like to observe people you are
a people watcher, an eaves dropper.” She kinda chuckles and says, “Yeah I am a
people watcher: I enjoy watching how other people interact.” And I say, “The
thing is this: there are two types of people: people who are observers, like
yourself, and people who live in the moment And I bet when you are truly having
fun, you can stop observing and be in the moment completely.” She kinda of
thinks about it and then says, “You are very good at reading people, did you
study psychology?” “Nope, just learned my wisdom from eating a lot of fortune
cookies as a kid. They taught me everything I know.” She laughs. Next I tell her
that she is very sarcastic, and I know this because I am sarcastic too… And that
most people can’t hang with her sarcasm but that a person who matches her wit is
the biggest turn on for her in the world. She really eats this up, which is
great because I do outmatch her wit. Then I tell her that she is a visual
learner. She asks me how I know. I give her an explanation and she agrees. Then
I tell her that most visual learners have great imaginations. She says, “yes, I
have a great imagination”. So I tell her, lets find out how good your
imagination is. I ask her to describe her ideal vacation spot. Then I start
doing the cube on her. She says to me, “do you do this to every girl?” “No” I
say, ” Only girls who seem adventurous and spontaneous…But I could be wrong:
maybe you are neither adventurous nor spontaneous. And if that is the case, then
we could never be friends and I will be forced to break up with you right now
because I am only friends with people who are adventurous and spontaneous and I
am not sure you can handle me.” She rebuts, “Oh I am very adventurous and
spontaneous, and I am not sure you can handle me how old are you anyways?”(Guys,
she is giving me a huge shit test). I tell her how old I am and then I ask her.
She tells me thirty-one. So I tell her that this relationship would never work
because she is way to old for me and she could never keep up with me. She tells
me that it doesn’t really matter because she does not look thirty-one (which was
true: she not only was very hot but looked like she was in her mid twenties).
And then she tells me that actually I am the old one in the relationship because
I am past my sexual prime, while she is in her sexual prime (God I love a witty
woman). Then I accuse her of being a big old perve for always having sex on her
mind. I say to her: “I was trying to have an intellectual conversation, but you
have to turn everything into sex what a sinner you are going to burn in hell.”
Then we start talking about the craziest places we ever had sex. She tells me
that she had sex on a rooftop once. I tell her my variant of Style’s “fucked my
girlfriend at a sex show in a foreign country” story. She thinks the story is
very money indeed. I go into something similar to Ross’ SRT. As I am doing this,
I ask her if she likes guys or girls more. She says, “I like guys more but girls
can work.” I say, “Good because I am only friends with girls who know they are
bisexual, so for your sake, it’s a good thing you said that.” Then I ask her on
a scale of 1-10 how good of a kisser she is? She says, “ten”. So, I kiss her. We
make out for a while. Then I say in a little boy tone, “What do you say we find
a hot girl and bring her home with us?” She says, “Yeah, that sounds like fun.”
So then I take her to the bar outside to # close her (I wouldn’t want to let
this one get loose, she could be useful). As we are walking outside, I have her
lock elbows with me (I learned this from Mystery when he was in LA). This is
outstanding because it assumes that we are together. We exchange numbers. Then I
take her to one of the numerous tented booths outside. Since they are somewhat
private, they are excellent for molesting. So I take her in one of the booths
and molest her for a while. I should have fucked her in the booth my bad. So I
suggest that we go back inside to pick up girls. We go inside. I go to kiss her
and she pulls back to tease me a little. So I say, “you are the sort of person
who feels comfortable being in control. I bet you are in control of your life
and that you usually like to be in control with men. But the thing is this:
maybe, you are confident enough in yourself that when you meet a guy that is
strong enough to be in control of you, you can allow yourself to get really
turned on; maybe not. I am a dominant male and I don’t know if you are woman
enough, adventurous enough, to let yourself be in the moment and give up
control? But if you’re not who I thought you were, that’s OK, we can be
friends.” At this point she starts kissing me passionately. It was getting late,
and I hadn’t seen Caliboy, Morpheus, or Rick (and his driver) in hours. So, I
said, “Wait here” and I left her to go find the boys (huge mistake). I come back
a half hour later and she is gone, so, I leave the club. I find Morpheus and
Rick. I bitch about the situation to Rick and Rick gives me some great advice on
how to handle the situation. My thought was that I shouldn’t bang the bi girls
until I get them into a threesome; I didn’t want them to get use to having sex
with me without another girl there. But Rick said that this could be a mistake
because if you have not banged at least one of the girls, then you could get
excluded from the threesome. So, according to Rick, what you want to do is this:
Bang at least one of the girls by herself, so you have an emotional connection
with (and dominance over) her. He also said that I must be dominant the whole
way through any sign of weakness will ensue in a bad situation.
The good news is that she lives in LA. I have talked to her since the trip and
she is very excited about going out to a strip club and picking other chicks
with me. My plan though is to bang her solo first, and then get her and
HBswinger together for a threesome.
Boys, this is how the game is really played.

Style (Commenting on the above, reposted from Mystery’s Lounge with permission
of the author):
Pushing/pulling. Yes, it’s best when incorporated into punishment/reward. But,
according to behavioral theory, what works BEST is an inconsistent
punishment/reward system. They are rewarded and punished MOST (but not all) of
the time. So you don’t have to be too strict about this.
But, generally, I am ALWAYS throughout the PU trying to push/pull. Telling her
to go away and stop pestering me, then pulling her back in and asking where
she’s going. Or telling her she reminds me of one of my sisters, and then making
a GM style comment. Or, like Badboy and Zan, doing things where you qualify and
then disqualify her. Things like making a relationship, then say it’s not
working out. Get engaged, then break up.
This is so key. And it occurs on a subtle level too. Suddenly looking over her
shoulder when she’s talking, as if she’s boring you. Leaning back. Stopping the
kino. These things–push-pull–are in my mind an element that separates the good
from the great. They really for some reason fire the attraction signals.


La Piovra:
I am looking to meet local PUA’s in Chicago to start up a Lair here. If
interested, email me at

Someone on Cliff’s list mentioned David Lieberman”s book “Get anyone to do
anything and never feel powerless again.” I’d like to consider a framework that
he claims people use to make decisions as it is applied to seduction.
Now before we start, it’s important to note that at the first glance this
framework looks analytical and we all know that women (and some men) make
decisions based on emotions and then use logic to justify them. But every time I
try to capture her imagination and lead the conversation I find that a framework
could be useful. The idea is to lead her through all stages of this decision
making process ENGAGING her emotions. In my opinion this will powerfully put her
in the right state even if she is one of the rare female logical thinkers. But –
this is just an idea and I will field test this and report the results but an
input is appreciated from bro’s with experience. Let’s take a look at it step
by step.
1. narrow a person’s options to avoid deliberation. Here she has a choice- to go
home to her ordinary and boring reality or find out things about herself that
will “take her breath away” (Thank you Svengali). Point that out in a matter-
of- fact way. It is important to make sure SHE decides and you just gently lead
her to do so. Again you need to become an Authority first. See Ross and others
as to how to do this.
2. Give a deadline to take action.This creates a sense of urgency and urge to
gain what is rare. Again this can be done in many ways- patterns, powerful
takeaways, etc.
3. Engage the law of consistency by having her to commit to smaller requests.
Here KINO leading to a massive make out session will go a long way IMHO. Or you
can challenge her on a variety of fronts, ego, guilt, fear of loss,
etc..Comments on this one? Other ways to enact this law?
4. Use your words and actions to enact the law of expectation.. here is where
confidence and calm sense of power comes in really handy. A simple “Let’s go”
may be all it takes if enough rapport is created and expectations are set. This
is the execution part and an execution must be swift. By delivering a powerful
execution you are saving yourself time in case she’s an attention whore, belongs
to a sex hate league, etc…If on the other hand she’s ready to go horizontal,
you’re setting things in motion as you should at this point. I think Mr Sex4uNYC
once said that you only should be taking home a girl who knows what she’s going
5. reduce what you want her to do to simple steps. In other words show her that
this is not complicated.. I don’t know if this law applies here.. comments on
this one?
6. Offer an additional benefit for taking action NOW. Again I don’t know if this
applies here, since expectations must already be set by this stage as outlined
in # 1 and then you simply act on it.
7. Probably the most important of all these rules is there must be a RAPPORT
between the two of you and you have to be able to gauge it. To me a simple way
to measure it is to observe how easily/ willingly she follows your
orders/requests (“let’s go to another room/place” or “wait for me, I’ll be right
back”) or KINO, though some chicks may not be as kinesthetic as others…
comments on this one?
At first this may seem like too much and too complicated but if you actually
think about this structure it starts to make internal sense.


> 26 “(Thinking: What? Fuck. I want to watch a movie at your house so I can try
to have sex with you). We walk to my car. I hold her hand on the way.
Halbster: It sounds like you coulda said “I want to get a movie and go to your
house so that we can pretend to watch the movie while sexual tension builds
until we start making out like animals in heat.
> 26: Tell her she can’t sit where she wants?

Halbster: Tell her to sit on your lap or share the spot with you.

> MB: I could not agree more with this line of thinking. I always try to learn
as much as I can about a female and look for “in’s,” so to speak. I will either
wait for her to make a comment regarding her sexual nature and then steer the
conversation that way or make a very light one myself and look to see how she
reacts. If negative I do not push but rather wait until later or reassess my

Ross: Right. Prime the pump if need be to get her talking, but use HER
responses to steer her where you want her to go.
> MB: I recently began articulating a lot more of what I want from women in a
general sense and virtually all women seek to meet the standard that you put
forth. If you say you want a passionate woman then that is what she will give
you because you have elevated yourself to a high level by defining your needs
and expectations. Women are truly masters of telling us what they want and hence
I realized that by doing so they challenge us to do the same.

Ross: Well put. Set a lead with your actions and in what you say.
>> Rio: Whenever a chick tells you her problems, she is really saying “Wow,
he’ll put up with all my bullshit. He must be a desperate loser-man with no
standards for women he hangs out with, and since he has nothing better to do,
I’ll take advantage of it and turn him into a friend!”
> MB: Not always but if he does not make his needs known he will fall into
whatever role she wants him to fall into and it is usually the lowest
denominator. To me if you simply hope that a woman will give you what you want
by virtue of being around her, you better hope again. If you do not make your
needs known to her she will assume you want nothing and give you what she
assumes you want – NOTHING.

Ross: Right. Make YOUR needs known AND your needs PRIMARY.
> MB: I do not see that great connection between having a woman tell you her
problems and her fucking you. Often after a high level session of disclosure and
your understanding of her will a woman feel more connected to you. In fact in my
experience women that have shared their problems with me I actually ended up
fucking faster than ones that did not.

Ross: Provided you let them know what YOU want and need, I agree. I’m talking
about a special kind of woman; the histrionic personality type who LIVES for and
LOVE her drama. HER emotions are ultimately the only thing that is real in the
world. They are female narcissists, but they are narcissistically focused on
their own internal drama and painful emotion as opposed to their appearance or
other things you’d more likely expect.
> MB: Wake up call. Women want sex as much as we do, but they need to feel a
little more accepted than we do before they give it up.

Ross: Right. I agree. Some actually need to feel REJECTED first..these are the
sick ones that Rio is referring to.
> MB: Women tend to have a defined image of us in their head, which is usually
not a very high one and it is up to us to let them know what we want and what we
are all about so that they do not falsely and incorrectly presume and assume
things that are not true. It is up to us to let her know what we are all about
and what we want, even if it is just sex. BUT once they do know what we want,
they begin to feel free and easy to offer us whatever it is that we seek.

Ross: Or to assess if they want to or even CAN give it. I agree. Very well
said. Excellent points and post.
>> Rio: About romance…. my slick factor increased when I viewed her as LTR
material. I read once from David Shade that women find it romantic when they
have to try and win a man’s heart, and that is what they find romantic… when
they finally win the heart of a man who doesn’t give a shit about them!
> MB: Here I have to say a flat out no. It is perverse to assume that anyone
would want to be with another person that does not care about them. Women that
try to win a man’s heart are ones what are aware of what he wants from life,
women, and relationships. Women that know this try to meet his standard and be
accepted by him and the only way she will know what you want is when you tell
her, but you do not have to give a shit about them when in fact it can be quite
counter productive.

Ross: Rio is describing a type of pathology that fits in with a specific
personality type/disorder: look up histrionic personality disorder.


Mark B.:
I recently made a life changing discovery. Over the weekend I read Larry King’s
“How to talk to anyone about anything under all circumstances” or something like
that. In the book he talks about the owner of the Washington Redskins, a
billionaire, who did not succeed until he learned how not to over sell. He makes
his point and then stops.
I realized that with some women I find highly appealing I tend to talk
excessively, offer my extended opinions and views and tell protracted stories
all in an effort to try to impress a woman. I realized that by trying to impress
a woman I am implying she is not impressed and hence she feels that I am trying
too hard. Inevitably I would lose them. In times when I said little but stayed
engaged my success rate is much higher.
Now I resolved not to say more than two sentences in a conversation before I
allow her to respond and no more than five when telling a story. When I want to
sleep with a woman I say “I would like to make love to you” or “come back to my
place” and then stop, allow her to digest the invite and not say anything until
she responds. Armed with this power I picked up a hot little 23 year old from a
clothing store who agreed to have a drink with me before I finished asking her
and telling her I would like to get to know her better.
In some ways less is more. It keeps women engaged, allows them to talk and makes
them feel part of the interaction as well as makes you look stronger, more self
assured confident and not desperate. Abe Lincoln was famous for this approach.


Clint “Art?” Arthur
26’s post on getting his new FB was HYSTERICAL. Much thanks to Style for getting
this into wide circulation.
For 26 and a lot of the younger guys on this list I sincerely think it would be
a smart idea to check out one of my videos like “New Sex Now” or my book “9 Free
Secrets of New Sensual Power” so that when you put all this powerful seduction
technology to use and finally DO end up naked with a chick you have some
knowledge and skills to work with so you won’t end up limp or not able to shoot
a load like 26. A lot of guys’ difficulty in shooting has to do with not wanting
to let down their guard, not wanting to be intimate, not wanting her to think
you’re anything less than a sexual superman. Well, as David would say, “Who
cares what she thinks!”
Personally, I would rather shoot it down her throat or all over her face any
time rather than inside her vag during sex. (And BTW, 26, yes it is safe to keep
using the same condom after you get soft and then get hard again, as long as it
hasn’t ripped.) I think what 26 ended up doing — jacking while she sucked his
balls — was a first-class improvisation, and he should be proud of his work
here. Just try spunking on her face next time and you’ll feel a lot better than
if you gotta wipe it off your six-pack. But you could make her lick it off, and
she’d probably get turned on by how you control and dominate her — if you could
make her do it.
All in all, that post had me laughing out loud and glued to every word.

Cliff’s Comments: After reading 26’s comments, it is clear that some guys out
there could use some good, down to earth, specific instruction in the bedroom.
I have seen some of Arte’s products and his video and his new book and there is
some very good information in there along those lines.


I started out with hypnotic seduction because life has treated me bad with
regard to dating. I’ve had my ass whupped by both better looking and worse
looking boys, richer and poorer boys, etc., etc. I was searching for a “pattern”
or a formula that would solve my problems with women. What made women tick? Yes,
I am not ashamed to admit it, I used to be a real, sore LOSER where the opposite
sex was involved. CLUELESS. And unabashedly unashamed, I can also claim that I
found the key into women’s minds, and have developed the skill to seduce women
with PRECISION and CONTROL previously unattainable with the conventional logic
that the world would feed you. No small thanks to Jeffries Cunningham,
Cleveland, Bandler, et al. Maybe at the time I was getting back at the female of
the species, and gorged on the affection, love and sex that was previously made
so unavailable to me. Like a kid in a candy store with a hundred dollar bill. It
was such a welcome change to turn the tables, to have women begging to be with
you rather than the other way around. To go from abject scarcity to overwhelming
plenty. That feeling of POWER, CONTROL and eventual ABUNDANCE really felt good.
To tell you honestly, that’s all history now. I pushed the envelope, changed my
situation,and I got there, or at least where I wanted to be, and am now content
and settled. Maybe I’m getting old. But no doubt, others are still embarked on
that journey, and perhaps they should, until they finally make peace with

The KEY is Ross’s and Mark’s stuff. Therefore, the key has been with you all

To learn it, chunk a small part at a time. Just like baking a cake, you might
want to add in stuff one at a time and see how that makes a difference. Of
course up until you find the integrated whole that works for you, it will work
sometime and not some of the time. But my advice is sound, learn stuff one at a
time. Learn embeds first. Then what to embed. Then how to link it and bind it.
That’s the first stage. Then on to ambiguities. Then to criteria/values
elicitation. And so on and so forth until you get to the stuff like hyper-
empiria, etc. The advanced things will only make sense once you’ve gotten over
the basics. Basically, it’s just a matter of integration and application.
Therefore practice, practice, practice and trust me, as you go, some of the
stuff will make sense to you. It ain’t wired in until you go out and actually do
it on wimmen.


dreamweaver (Reposted from Mystery’s Lounge with permission of the author):
I found my gimmick tonight. It was my 22nd birthday. My roommate bought me a
walking cane to signify my age. What did I do? I made it my pimping cane. I went
out with a girl on each arm. And do you know the shit I got away with as a
I walked right up to the hottest girls at the parties, tapped them with my cane
and said “let me see those goods.”
If they said what the fuck or showed any disrespect Id pound my cane to the
floor “shut the FUCK UP!, do you know who your fuckin talkin to? Now lets start
I used the pimp documentary (“American Pimp”) and talked about how we go down
to LA to fight over whose hoes are owned by who and how we trade hoes and look
for talent. Girls loved that shit.
This is definitely going to be a new style of mine every now and then. I LOVED
Alright, I thought I’d go into some more detail on how the night actually went.
First I had friends who were over for my birthday— all HB 8’s and up
pretending to be my hoes. This REALLY gave me some credibility. What I’m trying
to figure out is how I can do this again when it is NOT my birthday, and I don’t
have automatic hoes.
I’m thinking a routine like this: Walk up to girls I don’t know.
Dreamweaver: How would you like to be my hoes for awhile? I’ll treat you real
good.(big smile)
If they play along with it the next groups are easy, as I’ll go into exactly
what I did when I was out. Snowballing from your original group is a fucking
The other idea I can think of is asking the girls to play along with your
gimmick. Let them know it’s just for fun and you want to see how people react.
The first routine I used involved going up to guys and asking them how much they
would pay for my hoe on my right arm, and then compare that with the one on my
left arm.
PimpDaddyDreamWeaver: How much you think you gonna pay for ma girls?
He says some price— keep in mind he’s in a group set with girls there. If any
girl says anything I tell her “shut the fuck up. Who was I fucking talking to?
That’s right. Wait your Goddam turn.” Pounding my cane to the floor. (Yes you
NEED a pimp cane. It is a NECESSITY. More than the outfit, and nearly as much as
the attitude.)
No matter what price he says you say “not nearly enough, Goddamn.” I usually
followed that night with, “Oh well, it’s ma fuckin’ burthday, let the hoes
decide. If they wanna fuck you, ma man it’s free game.”
Then I’d go into my butt slapping cane routine. I take my cane and say “time to
test out the goods.” I would then slap girls on their behinds. Yes, girls I
don’t know. Especially the hottest girls in the club or the party. Usually I’d
say “naw, you don’t got what it takes. What you got girl?”
If she tells me she doesn’t want to be my hoe, or shows any disrespect- there is
a ZERO!!!!! tolerance policy. You must show the bitch. “You don’t have a choice
girl. If I like the goods, I take the goods.”
Then I challenge them “Entertain me.” I make them entertain me. I tell them it’s
my birthday, and that I’m the youngest fucking white pimp around. I should be in
the Guinness Book of World Records.
Then I talk about either American Pimp, or Pimpin Ain’t Easy (artsy doc as
opposed to main stream American Pimp). Either way I talk about how they filmed
me for it but I told them I don’t want my hoes exposed. How I fight for them at
pimp conventions. And I offer my girls only the best. But I always get what I
want. At this point you MUST transition to testing her to be one of your hoes.
You personally test all your girls.
This means you get to kiss her and whatever else she’ll do in the frame you set
her in. Remember you are the one in power. I don’t know any girls that stepped
outta line. I seriously was so into the roll I would have slapped them with the
cane. One girl said, “what if I run away?” I told her. “Ah’d do this,” I flipped
my cane upside down so the hook was on top and grabbed her by the leg and I
seriously tripped her. She was so taken aback by that she didn’t know what to
do. “No one runs from this pimp daddy.”
Whether the girls actually believed me or not didn’t matter because they all
played into it. The last opener I would use was just slamming my cane into the
middle of a circle and waiting for a girl to ask about it. I’d take my time then
say “did I ask you to speak. I’m a pimp.” If they laugh then you again go hard
on them. It’s about the money not the women. You can’t help getting laid.
The really bad side affect of this is…… I want to go pimping again, because
once you go pimp you NEVER want to go back.
Oh yeah I forgot my favorite routine of the night. Asking girls to rate my hoes.
Girls love stabbing at other girls. But they best not make fun of ma hoes!

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About Bobby Rio I'm Bobby Rio, one of the founders of TSB. I tend to write about what is on my mind so you'll find a mix of self development, social dynamics and dating articles/experiences.  For a collection of some of my favorite articles check them out.

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